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Just to remind you all that there are other ways to get your voice heard on climbing issues, as well as ROCKFAX.
The next climbers meeting in the Peak will be on Thurs. 5th Feb. at The Grouse,Froggatt. Start 7.15pm. Free sarnies and chips care of THE EDGE, and a slide show by Kieth Sharples.
All welcome, to talk or to listen.
The next climbers meeting in the Peak will be on Thurs. 5th Feb. at The Grouse,Froggatt. Start 7.15pm. Free sarnies and chips care of THE EDGE, and a slide show by Kieth Sharples.
All welcome, to talk or to listen.
Hot topics this month include an update on the proposal to buy Horseshoe Quarry, further news about the proposed railway through Cheedale and the latest on the Longstone Edge quarrying.
As for the Grit, the BMC is already discussing the Ring Ouzel situation at Stanage. Although current BMC policy is to avoid precautionary bans wherever possible, there is a proposal to introduce such restrictions at four specific locations for the crucial pre-nesting season. The BMC is in the process of preparing a response and needs feedback from Stanage regulars at the meeting.
To round off the evening, guidebook aficionado, photographer and Peak regular Keith Sharples will be regaling us with a slide show : “Changes - Peak Past and Present”.
Keith’s knowledge of the Peak District and its climbing characters is second to none so it should be a cracking show. See you there!!!
In reply to Mike Pinder:
Do you have to be an individual member or a member of an affiliated club to come?
Do you have to be an individual member or a member of an affiliated club to come?
In reply to GordonBP:
No. If you're a climber, join the fun. We are the world's least exclusive club..........
No. If you're a climber, join the fun. We are the world's least exclusive club..........
In reply to john horscroft: Thanks - I'm actually in an affiliated club (one of the founding clubs actually....)
Are all the meetings in Froggat or do the venues vary?
Are all the meetings in Froggat or do the venues vary?
In reply to GordonBP:
Used to jump around but nobody knew where we were so we stick to one venue now. Good chips.....
Used to jump around but nobody knew where we were so we stick to one venue now. Good chips.....
In reply to john horscroft:
Excellent! Not sure whether I can make it in Feb but I'll definitely come along soon.....
> (In reply to GordonBP)
> Good chips.....
> Good chips.....
Excellent! Not sure whether I can make it in Feb but I'll definitely come along soon.....
In reply to Mike Pinder:
Hmmph, me and Muz were going to come along this time (after the litter pick in December and meeting all those great people) and now I have to go to Bristol on the 5th and 6th...... Typical.
The chips ARE good though!
Hmmph, me and Muz were going to come along this time (after the litter pick in December and meeting all those great people) and now I have to go to Bristol on the 5th and 6th...... Typical.
The chips ARE good though!
In reply to Mike Pinder:
I live in Notts and have wanted to get involved and help out in BMC type issues etc
Wud it be good to come along to peak meeting and get involved etc there?? What is the purpose of the meet?
I live in Notts and have wanted to get involved and help out in BMC type issues etc
Wud it be good to come along to peak meeting and get involved etc there?? What is the purpose of the meet?
In reply to GordonBP:
The rules for attendance are here
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/download/bmc_articles.pdf
section 40 of the articles of association. The way I read it you may only attend if you club isn't already over its quota of area committee meetings.
> (In reply to Mike Pinder)
>
> Do you have to be an individual member or a member of an affiliated club to come?
>
> Do you have to be an individual member or a member of an affiliated club to come?
The rules for attendance are here
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/download/bmc_articles.pdf
section 40 of the articles of association. The way I read it you may only attend if you club isn't already over its quota of area committee meetings.
In reply to Noisy Article:
I think that anyone can attend, these are open meetings after all, but your voting rights will be limited.
I think that anyone can attend, these are open meetings after all, but your voting rights will be limited.
In reply to James Jackson:
No; I think Noisy whatever is actually right. Individual members, if you live in the region, elected Club representative if it is one of their selected regions, and Ken.
But I don't think they're bothered really, and will welcome anyone.
> (In reply to Noisy Article)
>
> I think that anyone can attend, these are open meetings after all, but your voting rights will be limited.
>
> I think that anyone can attend, these are open meetings after all, but your voting rights will be limited.
No; I think Noisy whatever is actually right. Individual members, if you live in the region, elected Club representative if it is one of their selected regions, and Ken.
But I don't think they're bothered really, and will welcome anyone.
In reply to john H:
The purpose of the meeting is for all good men (and women) to converge on the Grouse for a pint or two, a chat about some matters of common interest, some more pints, some chips, a slide show provided FREE (!) by a Peak District legend no less, followed by some more pints. Yes, in other words, it is the perfect opportunity to get involved at which ever level yer fancy. See you there........
The purpose of the meeting is for all good men (and women) to converge on the Grouse for a pint or two, a chat about some matters of common interest, some more pints, some chips, a slide show provided FREE (!) by a Peak District legend no less, followed by some more pints. Yes, in other words, it is the perfect opportunity to get involved at which ever level yer fancy. See you there........
In reply to Kipper, James and Noisy Article:
Quite frankly, I've never given a tinker's cuss for the articles of association or the constitution where Area Meetings are concerned. (I'm such a webble) Climbers need an opportunity to discuss the issues of the day and this is it. Everyone's welcome - end of story.
Quite frankly, I've never given a tinker's cuss for the articles of association or the constitution where Area Meetings are concerned. (I'm such a webble) Climbers need an opportunity to discuss the issues of the day and this is it. Everyone's welcome - end of story.
In reply to john horscroft:
...even people like me who refuse to join the BMC....
...webble that I am.....
Will try to be there J.
Si
...even people like me who refuse to join the BMC....
...webble that I am.....
Will try to be there J.
Si
In reply to Simon:
Oh, go on then Si, even you can come. Anyway, you owe me a pint...........
Oh, go on then Si, even you can come. Anyway, you owe me a pint...........
In reply to john horscroft:
Will you be carrying the BMC forms to be signed with your two heavies in attendance complete with screwgate stubai 8oz knuckledusters?
Sounds a good night out, wish it was a bit closer.
could you hold the peak meating in Wetherby or somewhere near?
Will you be carrying the BMC forms to be signed with your two heavies in attendance complete with screwgate stubai 8oz knuckledusters?
Sounds a good night out, wish it was a bit closer.
could you hold the peak meating in Wetherby or somewhere near?
In reply to Mike Pinder:
Unfortunately can't make this one, which is a pity cos I'd like to join in a rant about 4X4s, but please keep me on the e-mail list.
To the guys thinking of attending - go along, they're very friendly, interesting and often quite amusing, particularly if Lord Wilson makes an appearance. Just don't get in Adders way when the chips come out - she get's quite upset
Unfortunately can't make this one, which is a pity cos I'd like to join in a rant about 4X4s, but please keep me on the e-mail list.
To the guys thinking of attending - go along, they're very friendly, interesting and often quite amusing, particularly if Lord Wilson makes an appearance. Just don't get in Adders way when the chips come out - she get's quite upset
In reply to Mike Pinder:
is there a calendar for meetings for the rest of the year?
is there a calendar for meetings for the rest of the year?
In reply to alex:
To bump this up. Lynn and I will be there. I'm sure Lynn will monitor women's voting rights (she may well be carrying suffragette issue 50p pieces as missiles to deal with noisy firemen).
Our V0 ideas havent gone away (we've been doing the odd bit of exploring) but as a priority I've been trying to get our low grade grit pages finalised (typical when you are nearly finished you discover a couple of hundred high res scanned images somehow have got deleted due to a misunderstanding).
A mate told us last night that Plessley Vale is getting a bit of a hammering by outdoor groups (I'd have thought with all that loose rubbish at the top they would avoid the place) any one else noticed this is becoming a problem (churned paths, mud on boulder problems etc..)
To bump this up. Lynn and I will be there. I'm sure Lynn will monitor women's voting rights (she may well be carrying suffragette issue 50p pieces as missiles to deal with noisy firemen).
Our V0 ideas havent gone away (we've been doing the odd bit of exploring) but as a priority I've been trying to get our low grade grit pages finalised (typical when you are nearly finished you discover a couple of hundred high res scanned images somehow have got deleted due to a misunderstanding).
A mate told us last night that Plessley Vale is getting a bit of a hammering by outdoor groups (I'd have thought with all that loose rubbish at the top they would avoid the place) any one else noticed this is becoming a problem (churned paths, mud on boulder problems etc..)
In reply to Offwidth:
Its always the same, mention a location away from grit 3 star classics in the peak and silence is the normal result. I take it most people have not sampled the delights of Plessey Vale just next to Mansfield. Lots of excellent bouldering starting at mortal grades.
Its always the same, mention a location away from grit 3 star classics in the peak and silence is the normal result. I take it most people have not sampled the delights of Plessey Vale just next to Mansfield. Lots of excellent bouldering starting at mortal grades.
In reply to alex:
Your maplink does not work Alex. Coming if we can get in, will check this afternoon.
Your maplink does not work Alex. Coming if we can get in, will check this afternoon.
In reply to Mike Pinder:
Another interesting meeting, attracting Rocktalk glitterati (well; sutty, Offwidth and GingerKake to name a few) and assorted climbing superstars.
Another interesting meeting, attracting Rocktalk glitterati (well; sutty, Offwidth and GingerKake to name a few) and assorted climbing superstars.
In reply to Kipper:
Didn't introduce yourself though did you you? I never thought I'd live to be described as glitterati; crap but enthusiastic and stubborn at best. Then again I keep forgetting it was all about image and nothing about substance, like most chip fests, but more a feeding frenzy of the ego.
Didn't introduce yourself though did you you? I never thought I'd live to be described as glitterati; crap but enthusiastic and stubborn at best. Then again I keep forgetting it was all about image and nothing about substance, like most chip fests, but more a feeding frenzy of the ego.
In reply to Kipper:
It was a bit more than just Ring Ouzel's: Longshaw Edge.. Horseshoe Quarry...Standing Stones.....Mancon's unnecesary and possibly illegal obsession with secrecy of minutes (all sorts of organisations deal with this thorny issue of membership/public viewing rights and care required on confidential issues with much fewer problems). Oh and John Collin's socks and Black Whips (I think).
4x4's didnt come up.
It was a bit more than just Ring Ouzel's: Longshaw Edge.. Horseshoe Quarry...Standing Stones.....Mancon's unnecesary and possibly illegal obsession with secrecy of minutes (all sorts of organisations deal with this thorny issue of membership/public viewing rights and care required on confidential issues with much fewer problems). Oh and John Collin's socks and Black Whips (I think).
4x4's didnt come up.
In reply to Simon:
I was just about to post, yes Longstone (especially the current state of response of various parties to the problems with the quarrying of flurospar).
I was just about to post, yes Longstone (especially the current state of response of various parties to the problems with the quarrying of flurospar).
In reply to john horscroft:
Can someone tell me the reasoning for that - avoiding a precautionary ban.
I'm interested because here in Bishop we have a "voluntary" precautionary ban on an area "just in case" climbers may be affecting raptor (bird of prey) numbers.
Mick
>
>
> As for the Grit, the BMC is already discussing the Ring Ouzel situation at Stanage. Although current BMC policy is to avoid precautionary bans wherever possible
>
> As for the Grit, the BMC is already discussing the Ring Ouzel situation at Stanage. Although current BMC policy is to avoid precautionary bans wherever possible
Can someone tell me the reasoning for that - avoiding a precautionary ban.
I'm interested because here in Bishop we have a "voluntary" precautionary ban on an area "just in case" climbers may be affecting raptor (bird of prey) numbers.
Mick
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Probably because the organisations involved would look for such bans on significant areas on quite a lot of very important crags.
Probably because the organisations involved would look for such bans on significant areas on quite a lot of very important crags.
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Also, in this particular instance the science behind the restrictions is very dodgy.
1) Ring Ousels don't nest on Cattiside Rocks below Stanage despite the fact that this has been restricted access for many years and sees virtually no people.
2) There was no noticeable increase in Ring Ousel nesting during the Foot & Mouth crisis.
3) There is a certain amount of circumstantial evidence that the presence of climbers actually keeps predators away and is why they like busy bits of Stanage.
4) Over the last 20 or 30 years, the sheep have steadily eaten up much of the vegetation that the RO's live off which is a far more believable reason for their decline over that period. This vegetation is now being replaced in fenced-off areas.
Having said that, I the decision last night was to agree to limited 2/3 week restrictions on three sections of the crag this year - Counts Buttress, Hathersage Trip and the Rim, all minor sections - but not on the busy Trinity area. The idea being that if the birds nest at random with these restrictions in place it will further bolster the suggestion that Ring Ousels and climbers make good crag-side companions.
The overall impression I get from Henry Folkard's reports is that the whole situation is being negotiated incredibly reasonably with both parties fighting their case, but acknowledging the other's point of view.
Alan
> Can someone tell me the reasoning for that - avoiding a precautionary ban.
Also, in this particular instance the science behind the restrictions is very dodgy.
1) Ring Ousels don't nest on Cattiside Rocks below Stanage despite the fact that this has been restricted access for many years and sees virtually no people.
2) There was no noticeable increase in Ring Ousel nesting during the Foot & Mouth crisis.
3) There is a certain amount of circumstantial evidence that the presence of climbers actually keeps predators away and is why they like busy bits of Stanage.
4) Over the last 20 or 30 years, the sheep have steadily eaten up much of the vegetation that the RO's live off which is a far more believable reason for their decline over that period. This vegetation is now being replaced in fenced-off areas.
Having said that, I the decision last night was to agree to limited 2/3 week restrictions on three sections of the crag this year - Counts Buttress, Hathersage Trip and the Rim, all minor sections - but not on the busy Trinity area. The idea being that if the birds nest at random with these restrictions in place it will further bolster the suggestion that Ring Ousels and climbers make good crag-side companions.
The overall impression I get from Henry Folkard's reports is that the whole situation is being negotiated incredibly reasonably with both parties fighting their case, but acknowledging the other's point of view.
Alan
In reply to Kipper:
I must admit - given that it was our first time at the meeting we didn't know what to expect. We didn't expect that!
That said, some of the evidence DID sound a bit shaky.
I don't understand the opposition to taping the restricted areas off though - it IS unsightly but like someone said it's not likely to be the climbers who cause the disruption as we'll know about the restrictions. The general public won't, but you can bet if there's a problem it'll be the climbers who get blamed!?
Enjoyed the slideshow though. If only for the slightly dubious fashions. ('cos I never wore lycra leggings...)
> (In reply to Simon)
> [...]
>
> Ring Ouzels.
> [...]
>
> Ring Ouzels.
I must admit - given that it was our first time at the meeting we didn't know what to expect. We didn't expect that!
That said, some of the evidence DID sound a bit shaky.
I don't understand the opposition to taping the restricted areas off though - it IS unsightly but like someone said it's not likely to be the climbers who cause the disruption as we'll know about the restrictions. The general public won't, but you can bet if there's a problem it'll be the climbers who get blamed!?
Enjoyed the slideshow though. If only for the slightly dubious fashions. ('cos I never wore lycra leggings...)
In reply to TN:
I never wore lycra leggings...)
ooh, you've never lived!!
I had (well still got) some rod stewart tiger skin type lycra - cool as!
;0)
I never wore lycra leggings...)
ooh, you've never lived!!
I had (well still got) some rod stewart tiger skin type lycra - cool as!
;0)
In reply to Simon:
I lied too. I had a gorgeous pair of red and black stripeys. And I didn't even climb then..... eek!
I also walked round in a pair of red suede climbing shoes (50p from the market!)at the same time - didn't know they were climbing shoes.
I bet any climbers who saw me (in Doncaster, so unlikely!) thought I was a nutter!
Nothing new there then....
I lied too. I had a gorgeous pair of red and black stripeys. And I didn't even climb then..... eek!
I also walked round in a pair of red suede climbing shoes (50p from the market!)at the same time - didn't know they were climbing shoes.
I bet any climbers who saw me (in Doncaster, so unlikely!) thought I was a nutter!
Nothing new there then....
In reply to TN:
Exactly. If you implement a precautionary ban on flimsy evidence as a precautionary measure you are:
1. propogating the perception that climber are the cause of a decline in bird numbers when in fact there is no evidence either way
2. opening the door to more precautionary bans at cliffs on the slimest of evidence
Am I on the right track here?
Mick
> (In reply to Kipper)
> [...]
>
> The general public won't, but you can bet if there's a problem it'll be the climbers who get blamed!?
> [...]
>
> The general public won't, but you can bet if there's a problem it'll be the climbers who get blamed!?
Exactly. If you implement a precautionary ban on flimsy evidence as a precautionary measure you are:
1. propogating the perception that climber are the cause of a decline in bird numbers when in fact there is no evidence either way
2. opening the door to more precautionary bans at cliffs on the slimest of evidence
Am I on the right track here?
Mick
In reply to Offwidth:
Assuming you mean Pleasley Vale, I have and I must say I thought it simply redefined shite and loose polished shite at that. Useful in the rain, though.
In reply to Mick:
Don't know if you're on the right track - my impression is that Alan is - but propagate is spelled like this.
> I take it most people have not sampled the delights of Plessey Vale just next to Mansfield. Lots of excellent bouldering starting at mortal grades.
Assuming you mean Pleasley Vale, I have and I must say I thought it simply redefined shite and loose polished shite at that. Useful in the rain, though.
In reply to Mick:
Don't know if you're on the right track - my impression is that Alan is - but propagate is spelled like this.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Yes, sorry Pleasley Vale and the boulder problems (particularly the traverses) are very good. If people dont believe it, go try it. The routes can be chossy at the top.
Yes, sorry Pleasley Vale and the boulder problems (particularly the traverses) are very good. If people dont believe it, go try it. The routes can be chossy at the top.
In reply to Offwidth:
Agreed Offwidth. There is an excellent technical and pumpy 5c low level traverse, and a much harder one further right. Also some very good routes (including a 2-star VS, IMO) on a fine buttress left of the main crag.
Agreed Offwidth. There is an excellent technical and pumpy 5c low level traverse, and a much harder one further right. Also some very good routes (including a 2-star VS, IMO) on a fine buttress left of the main crag.
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
I think that was the general argument, if the Ring Ouzels produced more offspring the precautionary ban could be extended but if they produced less the bans would not be put in place in future.
One interesting hypothesis is that they like nesting where climbers are, as climbers frighten off the raptors that kill the chicks. If this holds true it seems that some of the restrictions on other crags to protect birds like Peregrine Falcons should be lifted to see what other sort of birds will nest on those cliffs.
The general thought was that a couple of areas could be used as precautionary banned areas and compared with the ones where restrictions were applied after nesting started. Compare the two areas.
Someone is needed to monitor the areas and do the research, volunteers please.
I think that was the general argument, if the Ring Ouzels produced more offspring the precautionary ban could be extended but if they produced less the bans would not be put in place in future.
One interesting hypothesis is that they like nesting where climbers are, as climbers frighten off the raptors that kill the chicks. If this holds true it seems that some of the restrictions on other crags to protect birds like Peregrine Falcons should be lifted to see what other sort of birds will nest on those cliffs.
The general thought was that a couple of areas could be used as precautionary banned areas and compared with the ones where restrictions were applied after nesting started. Compare the two areas.
Someone is needed to monitor the areas and do the research, volunteers please.
In reply to sutty:
Are you sure about that? Have you got evidence to back it up. If so why isn't climbing banned at all cliffs that are home to raptors? (and not just Peregrines)
Studies have actually shown the opposite. Climbers can be beneficial to raptors!
> (In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA)
>
>
> as climbers frighten off the raptors
Are you sure about that? Have you got evidence to back it up. If so why isn't climbing banned at all cliffs that are home to raptors? (and not just Peregrines)
Studies have actually shown the opposite. Climbers can be beneficial to raptors!
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Sorry Mick, only just picked this up. Computer problems as usual. Alan and offwidth have covered most of it, but the other celebrated case was the precautionary ban on Hen Cloud which was instituted "just in case" Ring Ouzel decided to nest there. It ran for a number of years and the RO never nested. I guess precautionary bans are fine if they're based on hard scientific evidence rather than wishful thinking!
Sorry Mick, only just picked this up. Computer problems as usual. Alan and offwidth have covered most of it, but the other celebrated case was the precautionary ban on Hen Cloud which was instituted "just in case" Ring Ouzel decided to nest there. It ran for a number of years and the RO never nested. I guess precautionary bans are fine if they're based on hard scientific evidence rather than wishful thinking!
In reply to Mike Pinder: Hi i am new to outdoor climbing and have just done an introductory course at the castle in london. I am in the peaks this week 1st-5th march 04 and i fancied an outdoor climb. Could you help and point me in the right direction.
cheers matt
cheers matt
In reply to matt Broadway-Horner:
Could you help and point me in the right direction.
Yeah, U will get some grim looks up here if you call it the Peaks!
Its The Peak, as in the Peak National Park.
Just a friendly warning!!!
;0)
si
Could you help and point me in the right direction.
Yeah, U will get some grim looks up here if you call it the Peaks!
Its The Peak, as in the Peak National Park.
Just a friendly warning!!!
;0)
si
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