UKC

I am on a walking holiday in Italy, and notice the relaxed attitude Italians and from past experience, Europeans have to dogs.

I then wondered if they allow dogs in Refugio, and an extensive research sample of one website suggests they do https://www.altabadia.org/en/info-service/tips-suggestions/holidaying-with-...

I have been instrumental in getting dogs allowed in one hut, but generally climbers seem a bit up tight about dogs, possibly they could learn from the Europeans.

Unless, of course, you’re allergic to them. I love dogs but my sneezing would keep everyone awake all night.

Sometimes dog owners are a bit blinkered about the impact of their dog on others.

Ah, the old allergy myth of the dog haters. If huts are to be low allergy zones, and possibly they could be, Shirley, peanuts and peanut products should be banned also.

Why so confrontational?

Someone allergic to dogs will often have an attack trigerred by the presence of the dog in a room (I'm not allergic to dogs but am to many cats). But everyone I've met allergic to nuts, seafood etc had to eat them (or at least use some cutlery which had been in contact with them).

The dog can sleep outside. That what I used to do with mine growing up in France. As a teenager, I would have the benefit of getting my 2 family dogs (a very big male mutt and a female husky) big 2 days outing without annoying/scaring people not used to dogs. Sorted. 
Many British dog owners are way too precious about their dogs- you may love them but they are dogs and not humans.

My dogs would have a wonderful time "sleeping" outside, but the local sheep/ deer/ rabbits/ pheasants etc might not enjoy the night so much! It's not my dogs I am precious about!! As you say, they are dogs and they do what dogs do!

Call me up tight if you like, but I just don't like dogs. I'll tolerate well behaved dogs with considerate owners, but unfortunately there's no way of restricting hut access to them only. If you allow dogs, you will inevitably get some owners who can't understand / don't care that other people don't want to be bothered by their dog, and they'll make the stay miserable for other guests. 

Couldn't agree more. Owning a dog is a privilege, not a right, and its access to public/communal space should be treated as such. Just because you (not you personally here of course) love your dog*, doesn't mean everyone else does.

*note this is also true for children

, but generally climbers seem a bit up tight about dogs

Possibly because they are often a nuisance at crags these days. Not the dogs fault I would surmise, the dog would just prefer the owner to be focused on them, not the climbing. Being intelligent animals they quickly get bored and then misbehave. Some dogs will hunker down quietly all day but that's quite rare in my experience! 

My understanding is that dogs are basically banned from most national parks in France and there are restrictions on where you can go with them in Italy.

The children we own's access to public / communal spaces is a privilege not a right?

ffs 🤣

Was it your feckin dog that bit me in the leg (coming up unseen from behind) on Helvellyn?

feckin careless dog owners

It isn't right because human rights are applicable to children and their parents

Yeah this one was a bit facetious - my point being that dogs are in fact not children, even though they have a lot of the same characteristics (shit everywhere, make noise, steal food (again I am joking!)) and people sometimes treat them as such.

I love my dog but I wouldn't inflict him on others that aren't keen on them! on the whole he ignores people and will go attack a rock and make a terrible noise. I could imagine in a hut he'd be a nightmare!

Some people definitely do view their dog through rose tinted glasses, the classic dog mum or dad......

I love dogs, but I do get that if unlike me you didn't grow up with a large black predator with big white teeth, zero concept of personal space and a questionable attitude to hygiene then you may feel differently.

But I sort of agree with your gist. If people who don't like/are scared of/are allergic to dogs could make it clear and if dog owners could respect that without behaving like entitled dicks this whole thing would not be a whinging point. We could indeed learn a lot from the Europeans, heck we were European until not so long ago.

FWIW, I can't abide children but I do get that other people think that theirs are the most wonderful creatures on earth

Umm, they were attached. I could have trusted the mutt but not the husky!
 

Wait, allergies are a myth? Who knew? Not "big pharma",  that's for sure.

this sentence is not compatible with reality 

My dogs would chew through it! One of mine can chew her collar off if you put her in her crate in it! She needs watched like a hawk!

‘and don’t call me Shirley’ ; ) 

about dogs (or more accurately dog owners) as mentioned already ‘some’ owners are blinkered about such things as noise (calling the dog, dog barking, trying to shout over a dog that’s barking) the noise pollution alone is enough to be a put off and then there’s  the issue of where the dog goes to p1ss and sh1t… 

https://www.pngp.it/en/visit-park/conduct-regulations

I assume you're in the Dolomites. FYI , no dogs in the Gran Paradiso National Park. 

The reason stated is that they attack and kill wildlife. 

We once stayed in an un-manned hut in Andorra where the only other person staying there was a shepherd. Her dogs had a fairly clear hierarchy of who was allowed to sleep where - the border collie was allowed to lie next to her on the sleeping platform, the other herding dog had a blanket on the floor, and the chien patou had to sleep outside the hut. The latter spent half the evening getting bullied by the young males from the local herd of horses, who'd prod at it until it woke up and started barking and then run away again to wait until it settled back down to sleep, at which point they'd repeat the procedure.

Maybe they need some form of 10m chain (so they can't chase the rabbits) and a cosy kennel when staying out and about. 

Allowing dogs if the huts have kennels, sounds a good compromise? Wouldn't suit every dog, but the owner should be able to judge that

I'm all in favour of dogs with enough politeness, social grace and empathy to attend when invited and otherwise keep away from strangers. I know there are many like this but there are many that aren't.  Those with the former kind of dog are not the nuisances I meet practically everywhere I go now.

Did you read what I wrote? I love dogs, they just make me sneeze. Is that too difficult to understand?

I'm not allergic to dogs; I am phobic of them.

I'm not proud of this "weakness" - I recognise it to be irrational and the cause of unwanted stress and, at times, confrontation - but, hey, you don't get to pick phobias.

My mum says it's rooted in an event I don't remember - being bitten on the cheek whilst strapped into a pushchair as a young child.  She's probably right.  I have made quite extensive efforts to mitigate the phobia, as it's actually dangerous - I ran in front of a car as a teenager to escape from a "friendly" dog that jumped at me on the pavement.

Interestingly, if I am out and a dog runs at me, I mostly freeze and jibber.  If I ask the dog to be leashed because I am phobic, I get about 50% support, 25% denial (friendly, just playing) and 25% laughed at.  I now tell people it's an allergy because that gets about 70% support and 30% denial.

So, no, I'd prefer not to have dogs in communal spaces.

You're not the only one on here to have stepped infront of a car to escape a "friendly" dog.  It's embarrassing and as you dangerous, but that's the "thing" about phobias, as a suffer you have very little control over your instinctive reactions.

Fortunately parents generally don't want strangers to love their child. So that's a relief. 

I would be fine with dogs in huts unless they bark at night. If I've only got 4 hours to sleep I'm going to be annoyed if there's one dog setting the rest off.

With no way to mitigate that I would have to appose.

But otherwise I quite like it when sat in a cafe and a dog woddles over to me for a bit of extra attention. Probably really hoping for food but all they are getting is attention.

You can’t really expect the world to change because of your own phobia though. I have Brephophobia,  it’s a nuisance but I don’t expect them to be banned from places as I know that the issue is mine and it’s irrational. Same with any phobia, dogs, spiders whatever.

personally I work on the basis my dogs are going where I am. I don’t have any inclination to support any business that won’t welcome us all and little interest in people that don’t like us all. The people that don’t like dogs are welcome to enjoy Wetherspoons without us.

Suggesting dogs should be banned because you once met an antisocial dog owner is a bit like suggesting climbing should be banned because some climbers ignore nesting restrictions, bolt without permission, knock over dry stone walls etc. judging an entire group based on the worst examples is always going to end badly for all.

I think that's fair. Vote with your money.

Sadly too many dog owners don't have control of their animal or lack sufficient respect for other humans to make any attempt to restrict the animal. From the tone of your post I'm pretty sure you will be one of the 25% that Moacs talks about being in denial.

If a dog isn't yappy or jumpy generally I can tolerate them, so a short lead or really good close control of the animal is generally all that's needed to avoid a scene - infact if I'm introduced to them and given the opportunity to build confidence with the individual my brain can reclassify the individual animal as 'not scary'. But as a general rule I want respect of my personal space, which means owners need to have sufficient control (with a lead or through training) to maintain this on behalf of their animals.

As commented above, children are not normally encouraged to jump up and climb all over strange adults, so why is such behaviour deemed acceptable from animals? Just like kids dogs can be cute, but that doesn't mean I want them interacting with me without invitation.

Who said that strange dogs jumping on you was considered acceptable? Blame the owner, not the dog. Not all dog owners are like this, you've only noticed the ones that are because they annoy you. Similar to all cyclists/BMW/taxi/etc are the scum of the roads. Dog Dave's final para is spot on. 

It's attitudes like this that are the reason why dogs are banned from places. If all dog owners had respect and consideration for other people then it wouldn't be a problem letting them in.

No, your phobia of babies is irrational but peoples' fear of dogs is not; babies do not sometimes run at you with their sharp teeth and possibly bite you.

No, I think most people would accept that if a minority of climbers do things like that then it is fair enough that we might all get banned, tough though it is on the blameless majority.

No dogs in huts please.

All the reasons given above plus the fact that dogs stink.

So much so that they out stink the general unwashed fartiness of everyone else in the hut.

Dog owners seem to be oblivious to this.

Ok putting aside personal issues.

I think of you want to take a dog you should book self contained sleeping accommodation and not a bunkhouse or dorm (climbing hut).

Unlike hotels the cleaning at huts between guests is 'limited' and very few people want dog hair left in their sleeping space - and that's before you consider allergies, or dare I say fleas.

If nobody objects then fine to bring it into communal areas, but NOT in the sleeping accommodation - bring a tent to both sleep in and be prepared and willing to leave your pet outside if the hut is crowded or someone objects (for any reason). 

Putting aside allergies I suspect that most people won't object to a well trained dog, so the onus is on the owner to not be the irresponsible % that give everyone else a bad reputation.  

I'd go further and ban all dogs without a job. Working dog contribute so much to society as search dogs, herding dogs, drug sniffing dogs, guides for the blind, what noble puppers they are. But most are absolutely useless. 

Apparently the average dog has the carbon footprint of a large SUV - https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/are-our-pets-bad-for-the-environment/

There are 10 million dogs in the UK. When I am dictator for life they will be banned. I reckon 99% of dogs are benefit scroungers. Imagine removing 10 million cars from the road, we'd be half way to net zero probably. 

I cant walk in my local woods without playing hopscotch through the endless piles of dog poo. Recent studies apparently note it is literally causing chemical contamination of soil through excess nitrogen. Of course some responsible dog owners leave the dog turds hanging in little bags off trees like the worst christmas tree decoration of all time. 

BAN THEM ALL... especially from huts. 

I want to know where everyone is going to get constantly jumped on by dogs! My locals are very much dog friendly, but you you know there is a dog in there is when you almost trip over it.

Might check out these places as I quite like dogs. Also amazing how quickly people get over their issues with dogs when they are lost and one is searching for them.

I wonder what the carbon footprint of a trip to Thailand is, or Morocco for that matter 

Fwiw I entirely empathise - I didn't grow up with dogs but did have an incident with an overly boisterous puppy when I was very, very small that left me scared of them ever since - to the extent where I wouldn't cross a stile into a field when there was a dog running around it, etc (people almost always seem to leave their dog to keep running towards you, even when you're obviously backing away, and I know this is an issue for other dogs as well as humans!). I've got a lot more used to calm dogs now but it's frustrating that there is so much utter hatred towards people who don't want dogs right up in their space.

Obviously noone's blaming the dogs themselves but I've definitely noticed a blind spot amongst a lot of dog owners about how well controlled their dog is or its effect on others - and an assumption that everyone is ok with it. I remember joining a club for the first time where someone let their dog walk all over the dead rope while I was belaying - which seemed actively dangerous even before you add in the distraction to a belayer scared of dogs who couldn't get away from the situation. Noone else said anything, presumably all thinking it was normal or cute.

I guess from your logic all children need eliminating as they don’t have jobs, oh and retired people and wild animals for that matter.

Sadly I’m going to be supreme dictator before you and ban all cyclists, morris dancers, minor tv celebrities and anyone else I find mildly irratating so there will be even more room for even more dogs.

there are some bad dog owners just like there are bad every other type of people. My point is penalising everyone for a small minority that don’t behave well is unfair regardless of whether that minority bothers you  - and sadly once you have decided you don’t like something it’s inevitable confirmation bias makes you believe it’s a more common problem as a percentage than it really is whether that’s dogs, children, cyclists etc. that’s just human nature and we all seem to do it unless checked.

We all expect others to make reasonable adjustments to our needs/wishes. I had a colleague who had a balloon phobia so we never had balloons at celebrations. You're clearly expecting others to make adjustments to your dogs.

Assuming you're not blind how did that pan out for you the last time you went to the doctors, the cinema, a supermarket, a parents night at the school etc etc? Dogs (and other animals) are excluded from a whole host of places for very good reasons. This includes most communal accommodation which was the original point of the thread.

This isn't an attack on dogs or dog ownership in general, it's just how society works.

Assuming this to be a fact, it might constitute evidence for divine intervention.

In the past few months, we have been living a split life while our house sale goes through (such a long and drawn out process!), and that has meant some weeks both dogs are with my husband. I sometimes go out for "dog walks" in the hope that some dogs want to bother me for affection. Sadly it doesn't usually happen. 

Of course, owners generally know if their dog is going to be a pain or not, and act accordingly. 

I laughed up thread about dogs being left outside, but of course, in reality, I am picky about where I go because I know my dogs aren't simple. 

One has been to bothies, and is fine in there but stays on a lead incase the door gets opened and then we usually sleep in a tent outside. The other has never been in a bothy or a tent and will probably not for another few years as she still has a lot of settling to do (we were her 4th home at a year old). 

No dog owner wants the hassle of having a problem dog in the wrong place, it would ruin the enjoyment of being there.

I'm not sure there is much equivalency between trips to outstanding climbing areas of international repute and a small mammal whose only function is to turn small dried biscuits into offensive poop. 

Did you know, another great fact about dog poo - it causes 100 cases of blindness in children every year https://petopedia.petscorner.co.uk/dog-poo-you/

What do we get for 100 blind children and 1000s of tons of carbon? 

in reply to Dog Dave: 

Although most children grow up to be useful whereas dogs are a man made thing with no function. I would be happy to have you run in my cabinet when I am dictator as your stance on minor celebrities is admirable. I would also include a ban on the use of caravans during daylight hours. Obviously cat ownership would immediately incur 10 years hard labour. 

A lot of Austrian huts let you sleep in the winter room with your dog, which seems like a good compromise. 

If you want to bring your dog, you have to sleep in a separate area (not normally heated) possibly with other dogs, but you don't disturb anybody else who may not like dogs.  

I know a dog who does not like other dogs at all. We are very careful to keep him on a leash and away from other dogs, but there's always a problem; other people do not keep their dogs on a leash, and that dog runs up, isn't recalled or doesn't obey the command, and this particular dog gets upset. Often they'll volunteer "oh they're friendly!" Well that may be, but this one isn't!

I really wish that dog owners would generally take more responsibility for ensuring their dog doesn't randomly approach other people or dogs. Until they are I can't really blame people for wanting them banned from a lot of spaces.

Nah, everyone knows that if you stand around doing sod all other than shouting your misbehaving dog's name in a disapproving tone you've done absolutely all you can and you're under no obligation to intervene further or feel in any way responsible.

This never gets old: 

youtube.com/watch?v=3GRSbr0EYYU&

I'm pretty sure even the most ardent dog dislikers don't have a problem with a well controlled dog doing a useful job. 

I feckin hate jetskis, but if I was drowning and the coastguard showed up on one to rescue me, I'd be glad to see it.

Oddly enough I agree, a dog will give about 12+ years of enjoyment, often for many people. You holiday will bring you enjoyment for a week, and annoy your mates forever more with "Oh when I was discovering myself in Thiland". I see your problem, you think the reason people have dogs is to turn small dried biscuits into offensive poop. Ignoring all the positives they bring, but I guess that doesn't fit your agenda

Dogs should be regularly dewormed and again responsible owners will do so. I have struggled to find any source for them 100 kids every year, I don't suppose you have one? I see the words banded about but can't find where from.

As you seem like an intolerant person, apart from children and holidays what do you tolerate?

But these same people if they had their way would never see that dog out of work mode, unable to explore the hills with a degree of independence. So how do you train your dog without being able to expose it to the environment?

In my experience, people with proper working dogs are the epitome of a responsible dog owner. If all dog owners behaved like them then there wouldn't be all the animosity towards dogs. The problem is the significant number (most definitely not a small minority) of feckless idiots who can't see why they should keep their pet under control.

In this situation it's your acquaintance dog that's the problem. I know it's hard, expensive and takes time but that dog needs some intensive training at a dog school with other dogs to train it to tolerate other dogs and keep it's temper/fears in control. Whilst not possible to get the desired result with all dogs, most can significantly improve. Doing nothing and keeping it on a lead isn't good enough but it's the lazy option that most will follow.

I think the real issue is most people don't have time to own a dog. This is sadly why I don't own one. 

If all dogs are friendly, having dogs run up to each other isn't a problem. It's actually quite cute to watch. Dogs being bounds by leads at all times isn't the most exciting existence for them and I see no issue with well natured dogs roaming free in open spaces. This naturally means they may approach people and other dogs. If you really hate this reality then I suggest moving to the Middle East or Indonesia which have the lowest dogs ownership rates.

Er no. It's not the responsibility of the person / dog being harassed to learn to deal with it. It's the responsibility of all dog owners to keep their pet under control and not bother anyone. That's not just my opinion, that's the law.

No, it's the dog owners responsibility to ensure that dogs aren't dangerously out of control. There is no law about a dog being friendly and inquisitive to other dogs or people whilst off a lead.

Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, section 3

Yep sums me up as well.100% with you on this.

Dog jumps up, knocks my 3 year over and removes the sandwich from his hand.

"He's just being friendly"

"How about I kick its f**king head in?"

The ensuing scene (somewhere in a Wakefield country park) taught my kids a few new words, mostly uttered by the delightful local dog owner.

Sounds like you need to be kept on a lead

About 10 years ago our club booked a hut. On the Saturday night we returned to find 4 Members had also arrived and were sitting in front of the fire with a large dog occupying about 3 sofa cushions. 

We made food etc and after a while drifted into the lounge where there wasn't enough seating space and it was freezing away from the fire. 

We politely asked if, perhaps, the dog couldn't relinquish his space? The members were appalled. He's comfortable, he's asleep, he's very old.......

After about 20 minutes of some of us standing around they finally, reluctantly, moved the dog to prime floor space in front of the fire and we gained a few seats. 

My one and only experience of dogs and their climber owners in Huts. Do you think this is totally unusual or likely to be replicated if dogs are allowed? 

That depends on how unusual it is to encounter thoughtless pricks in huts.

FWIW, the club I am a member of has a no-dogs rule in their hut, a rule which was decided upon many years ago when we had an active member who was allergic to them, though said person is no longer resident in the UK let alone a hut visitor. However we do have an active current member who has a registered companion dog which is exempt from most of the exclusions society places on pet dogs.

Personally, I'm always delighted when it turns up as I have a dog-shaped void in my life. Whether or not this dog detracts from other people's comfort is something you'd need to ask them but to the best of my knowledge there have been no allergy issues.

Allergies aside, I can't help but think that moaning about residual dog hair in huts is a bit petty considering that huts are less than sterile and have rodents running around them most of the time.

Not that I mean to compare a dog to a bag, but it's the similar mentality of person that places their bag on a seat on a crowded train. We should therefore conclude that bag owners are inconsiderate and therefore bags should be banned from trains.

Or maybe, just have a few rules that people should follow. 

One thing i noticed living in France and just back from a holiday in Italy is that there are a lot fewer dogs than in the UK, also the dogs tend to be smaller, many dogs were being carried by their owners. So it may be why its not such an issue, less dogs means less problems associated with dogs. Climbing at a crag in italy recently, about 6 dogs around, one gave all the others a bad name.

Nonsense. This particular dog is absolutely fine as long as other dogs they don't know don't wander into within a foot or so of them or physically touch them. It's something that can be improved and we are working on but it absolutely is the case that if one's dog runs up to other dogs and doesn't obey a recall or isn't on a leash then that's highly irresponsible of the owner because they dont know the nature of the unknown dog. This particular dog is always on a leash unless there's no one within miles for this exact reason.

You might think it's "beautiful" but it sounds to me like you're letting rose tinted glasses influence your view into becoming part of the problem. No dog is perfect, but the flaws of dogs who are kept on leads when around other people/dogs are well mitigated and controlled. I'm very fond of this particular dog, but have zero illusions as to their nature.

The Hut I frequently stay at allows dogs providing there isn't anyone already booked in that objects or is allergic. 

I've stayed there over the winter lots with both my own dog and others with no problem what so ever. I have had to share the hut with other inconsiderate humans which was a much worse experience.

There's massive benefits to owning a dog to both mental health and physical health with research demonstrating dog owners are generally healthier. The Hut mentioned has been a lifeline, as it's becoming harder to find campsites in some areas that will take dogs, sadly most likely due to the irresponsibility of other dog owners.

Where's he going to sleep ?

If in the dormitory, have you considered people getting up for a pee in the night and waking him/falling over him - god forbid that he might have moved... ?

Have you considered him being woken by animals outside, and barking ?

Have you considered that the gardien(ne) might have their own dog (or perhaps a cat) and not really want another encroaching on his territory ? I can remember the sweet old golden lab belonging to the gardien at the rifugio Bonatti being very agitated when other dogs were in the hut.

Have you considered maybe taking a tent for you and your dog ?

From gov.uk

Out of control

Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:

injures someone

makes someone worried that it might injure them

A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:

it attacks someone’s animal

the owner of an animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal

Key point is "makes someone worried". The dog owner might think that the dog is just being friendly, and they might even be right, but that's not good enough. They need to control their dog in a way that means any reasonable person will not be worried about it. 

Oddly the last time I got bitten by dog was by a working sheep dog. I was cycling very slowly and loudly up a rocky bridleway out of Cheedale and the farmer was working on drystone wall. Fortunately I was wearing kneepads and the dog's teeth got caught in the mesh on the back so only just broke the skin, but still not great. The farmer basically ignored me but swore profusely at the dog and swiped at it and then kicked it. If this was meant to make me feel better, it really didn't.

I think you are misinterpreting how the court would see it.

That line is in there to allow for people who are aggressively chased by a dog for example but do not get injured in the process. 

It's not there for people who have either an irrational fears of dogs or are simply irritated by them.

No court in this country is going to prosecute a dog owner if someone claims they feared a dog was going to injure them however the dog didn't show any aggressive behaviour. This would not be considered Out of Control.

And the farmers treatment means the dog is more likely to bite again! Back to bad owners being the problem! 

Collies are notoriously triggered by movement and noises. The farmer needs to desensitize the dog, and keep it on a lead until it is. By abusing it, it now knows for sure that cyclists are a threat because you appeared, it warned you and then it got hit. So next cyclist needs warned even more! 

Poor dog. 

Your description of irrational fear of dogs illustrates the point nicely. You think its irrational but to that person ( who has usually had some form of negative expeirence of dogs in the past)-it is rational.

A girl in one of my classes, sitting at the back of the room, had a peanut reaction after I'd eaten some at break about 10 minutes before she entered the room.

Another lad had an egg reaction when the technician brought some boiled eggs into the room and put them down about 8 metres away from where he was sitting. 

You can (incorrectly) make that claim for any phobia. By definition, a phobia is irrational.

A bit of healthy respect and caution is not a phobia nor is it irrational. It's sensible. But if you jump out of control at the site of a dog, that is irrational and because it's likely affecting your daily life it's probably also a phobia (and therefore irrational by definition).

Doesn't sound this dog is under control then. A dog on a lead isn't necessarily under control if you can't stop it attacking another dog.

If I was walking along calmly and you bounced up to me and tried to hug me, I might not respond in kind! Some dogs don't want to be approached and that is ok. 

Some have had bad experiences, some are in pain, some are elderly, some are just not interested. 

I have one who wants to play with every dog, so we have to teach her she can't. I have one who definitely doesn't want to meet another dog while on lead, and only sometimes tolerates it off lead. We have managed to tone down his reactions at a distance, but he will never want to be approached. 

Please don't bounce up and hug me if you see me!

Yep that is what us people who find dogs threatening do....we get out of the way....and there are alot of us about.

Is this not an ok way to greet people. This may explain a lot. Hmmm.

Whilst I would be very happy to have my dog, I really don't want anyone else's noisy, reactive, aggressive, raw fed dog in the hut, so I have to say NO to dogs in this situation. Dog behaviour in the UK is generally poorer now than a few years ago which adds to my negativity. 

Smelly climbers steaming and farting around the fireplace and the kitchen is bad enough, but at least they're paying to be there.  Huts just aren't set up to accommodate dogs without inconveniencing the other guests.

Our dog would love going to huts, being a St. Bernard, but his snoring would cause an avalanche.  I don't think he'd be welcomed. 

Has to be kept on a lead as he wants to see everyone and every dog in sight for play and cuddles, problem is, when people see an 80kg ball of fur running at them even the most confident dog owner gets nervous.

His best friend is a Bichon Frise at 5kg

Sorry, I thought it would be very clear I was joking as this is fairly silly topic, I actually have no intentions of becoming dictator for life in the UK. I can also see how dogs may provide some other benefits other than dog poop generators  

Here's a BMJ paper on Toxocara in playing fields which mentions ocular toxocariasis - https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/35/1/6 it notes 50-100 cases of ocular toxocariasis a year with a risk of causing blindness but no mention of what the actual incidence is. 

In reply to:

Has no one called it yet? Oh well, I'd say 7/10. Points for subject matter and for not returning to thread, but fails to score highly because it hasn't really kicked off and nobody has been banned. 

Are you blind ref

That suggests that the collar is not sufficiently tight(?).

No, she has a ridiculously long neck and quite the contortionist! She chews off harnesses too, also at the neck strap. We have to make sure she has nothing on for going in the crate etc. She is quite a unique trouble-pup!

We have a rescue dog that's exactly the same. This country is full of people who can't control dogs, and get arsey when politely asked to call their dogs. I'm at the point of saying nothing and taking the attitude that mine is alway on the lead, if theirs isn't under control and comes flying into mine it's their problem when it gets ripped to bits.

I'm absolutely fed up of getting into confrontation with dickheads who shouldn't own dogs.

I was out running a while back, on a footpath past a farm, and was bitten by the guy’s dogs (Westie and Dachshunds, not working dogs). The first thing he said was “that wouldn’t have happened if you hadn’t been running”. I was tempted just to punch him because clearly reason wasn’t going to work, but I didn’t because I managed to calm down, but mostly because he lives all alone in a boiler suit in his farmhouse and is probably unnaturally physically powerful, or a shotgun owner. 

Nah. For a start he returned briefly, so not a clean attempt.

But as a troll it was a miserable failure. A UKC dog thread is usually pretty evenly matched between likers and dislikers, so should be piss easy to get something to kick off. But here we have a clear majority of people not wanting dogs in huts. Even lots of dog likers and owners agree that there are too many dickhead dog owners for this to work.

Hi Steve,

Hope you’re having a good trip.

You probably know that I’m not really on your side here, but I don’t want to join an argument. But I would just say that you might consider using slightly different language than “uptight” to describe the feelings of what is clearly a huge majority of people who have responded to your thread. It sounds rather freighted with the idea that your opponents are somehow lacking with normal feelings and can even sound a bit like victim blaming or gaslighting.  I don’t think suggesting the problem lies with your opponents helps your argument one bit.

I once had a dog jump up at my shopping bag and land its muddy paws on me.  I used a stern voice and said Down.  Out of breath owner came running round the corner - “how dare you speak to my dog like that?”.   I enquired if they’d rather I’d used my boot to protect myself and my shopping from their out of control dog and things took a turn for the worse.  Honestly, “How dare you speak to my dog like that?”.  Hard to see how they got confused with “I’m very sorry I hope you’re okay”.

I feel like feeding the troll:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-65275687
 

the fear the lambs suffered probably was just a phobia…

Dog allergies are definitely not a myth. My SO reacts really badly to dogs. Whenever this is politely raised with the owners it is invariably badly received

Please report incidents like this to the police. 

Can you imagine the trauma if this had happened to one of the individuals on here who have a dog phobia? People say a phoba is irrational fear, but your post shows that actually it's completely justified to be fearful of being attached by unknown dogs.

Owners need to be accountable and as I have said before, if their animal isn't trustworthy it needs to be controlled by physical restraint (leads, fenced runs etc). Living on a farm, or legally owning as shotgun does NOT exclude you from the laws on responsible dog ownership.

Actually the law is very clear that it is the perception of the person being harassed that matters.

If I feel threatened by your dog - as I would if it ran at me barking - then the law views that as out of control. If I have asked you to leash it you are being reckless in addition.

However, as I say, for reasons unknown people seem much happier to be considerate for an allergy than a phobia.

Very restrained. When a dog comes at me aggressively I shout as loudly as I can and act as aggressively as I can back. I've been bitten before and wouldn't hesitate to kick a dog which attacked me again.

I met someone with a very large and friendly St Bernard in Mountain Factor in Ambleside a couple of years ago so that was probably you. I'd be delighted to share a hut with him, snoring or not. A friend had a similarly friendly Rottweiler many years ago, it was possibly the worst snorer I've ever encountered, human or canine.

When a dog comes at me aggressively I ignore it. I've never been bitten.

Not us, we only got him 2 years ago, and I've not been up there for a good few years

Lucky you.

Another good tactic is to have a few stones in your hand to chuck at an aggressive dog. Seems de riguer in many countries and most dogs seem to get the message.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/wicklow-walking-trail-closed-after-alleged-do...

Another to add to the list.

Met a guy going overland years ago who had a scarf with wooden balls on the end as a similar anti agro dog measure..

I've been bought up with dogs, dogs in the family, partner has a dog that often stays etc etc. I also live in a coastal area popular with dog walkers and when running / walking (with dog and solo) have had to shout, menace & kick off a number of aggresive dogs, so can see both sides.

I had a bad experience with one hut dog (part of the hut pack in the Romanian Carpathians) that took a dislike to me, I could only leave the hut to go to the loo armed with my walking stick to fend it off! Can't see that dog taking kindly to visiting dogs!

Ah. This dog was huge, even by St Bernard standards.

I wouldn't do this with big shepherd dogs in Europe (or West/Central Asia). Backing down from perceived threats isn't in their DNA. It does work with yappy snappy farm dogs here though.

The snoring and farting of the dog owners is enough, without having to tolerate their dogs adding to the olfactory soup formerly known as air...

I’m put in mind of an incident in the dim and distant past when  I was running quite a lot. One of my regular runs went on a path between two houses. On one side was see-through and not dog-proof hedge. One day a small yappy dog was in the garden, as was the owner, fortunately. Soon it was running and biting at my heels. “If you don’t stop I’m going to kick you” I said quite loudly. It didn’t so I did, landing a hefty side swipe to the head without even breaking step. Then, joy of joy, the owner shouted “Oh, you cad!” Made my day.

I was at Par beach in Cornwall twice in the last few weeks on plant spotting tours with a local expert. Despite appearances, the beach is in the top 10 square kilometres in the UK for numbers of plant species observed. It is also a very popular dog walking site and the piles of poo were everywhere. Our expert made exactly the point you make, about the threat that elevated nitrogen levels are making to the very thing that makes the place special.

I've got this vision of a silver haired, be-cardiganed lady clipping her privet and Tricky-woo snarling in triumph as you beat a hasty retreat?

It's a technique I picked up in Tibet for big Tibetan mastiff yak guarding dogs. It's what the local kids did. Same in Nepal. Now I pick up a few stones whenever I have to pass dodgy looking dogs in foreign parts. Just bluffing throwing them usually keeps the dog at a distance.

We have similar problems on the local beaches and surrounding areas. The locals (six fingered variety) are very vocal in blaming the tourists, but lockdown showed the opposite, the locals being very much to blame. 

I’ve done the same trekking in Morocco’s Jebel Sahro, where the villages all seem to be guarded by large and very aggressive dogs. A big stone in hand and the absolute conviction that you will use it if necessary kept them at bay. 

This pack featured recently on the local news, running loose and out of control on a beach in north west England. The big black one looks particularly scary.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-manchester-65276327

Don't try that in North Macedonia! The huge shara mountain sheep dogs will kill a wolf to protect the flock. You wouldn't stand a chance with a bunch of stones! The received wisdom is stand perfectly still and attract the shepherd's attention before attempting to move.

We met two of these monsters on Mount Korab; one herded the flock up the mountain to safety whilst the other stood firm. I've never been so scared, waiting for the elderly shepherd legging it over the mountain to retrieve the situation and allow us to pass. 

Um, you're wrong - see my post above

NHS Digital say that almost 3,000 people needed reconstructive surgery after dog bites in 2020/21 - that was during lockdown, and 8,500 hospital admissions.

This article in Nature (hope that's ok for you), says 207,000 dog bite A&E attendances/year - 0.8% of total attends.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-81527-7

So there's an awful lot of poorly controlled dogs out there; it's pretty disingenuous to pretend otherwise

Totally agree and I'm amazed at the number of dislikes you're getting for this. My usual dog walk is about 6 miles and 90% off lead. The dog mostly ignores people unless they make a fuss of her (not unusual) but will sometimes look at them as she trots past. Very, very rarely this passing glance has provoked obvious worry (hands clenched to chest, grimace, etc).

It seems there are people on here who would insist I should be arrested. Good luck with that 999 call.

I think there are just a lot more people in the UK who are intolerant to dogs than I realised. I had Britain down as a nation of dog lovers with a minority of exceptions. Evidently I was wrong.

I would disagree, you’re irrational about your pooches on these islands. As a nation, you have more of them (hence perhaps the crazy figures and also a big number of people frightened) and you often treat them as people.
 

Thankfully, there is a majority of dog owners who control their dogs well and are overall reasonable when it comes to them.

Unfortunately, there is a not insignificant minority that are poor dog owners (unreasonable expectations vis-à-vis their animal, poor control and poo bags in trees - I for one would prefer the  💩 on the floor than bagged in a tree!).

Anyways, dogs in kennels and people in bunkbeds !

I belong in the evidently substantial group of people who like dogs in principle, but are intolerant of the regrettably large proportion of complacent or uncaring dog owners who fail to train and manage their dogs to ensure that they're not a public nuisance, a hazard, or a threat to people who for good reasons of their own may be anxious about dogs.

As Dave HK put it succinctly way back at the start of this thread, "Sometimes dog owners are a bit blinkered about the impact of their dog on others."  Except I'd substitute "far too often" for "sometimes".

Leads???

I think it's more likely that UKC dog threads seem to attract the dog phobic, the number of irrational dislikes on non contentious posts amply demonstrates this.

The dog goes pretty much everywhere with us and I've never had a negative interaction with anyone. On the other hand, people wanting to stroke her or commenting positively is a daily occurrence.

Well then that's all the proof we need to confirm that no dog anywhere ever has or will ever upset anybody.

See post #3

Not at all my point. 

Teeth!!!

The fact you notice the 'obvious worry' (and I presume act on it) suggests you are one of the responsible owners.

Recalling to heel, then a hand on the collar can be incredibly reassuring for those of us who are nervous. Not only giving us confidence for this one encounter, but reminding us that not all dog owners are selfish idiots.

​​​​

I certainly don't want the dog's presence to cause anyone distress and will happily bring her in close/leash her/swap tables in the pub if someone appears discomforted.

Wahey artif, you've pulled

Thankyou, that kind of behaviour from owners really is appreciated. 

This reminds me of an incident a few years ago. Friend had a very muscular Jack Russel which was well socialized around people and one evening the grown up son (who the dog liked and regularly stayed with when his owner was on holiday) came to the house and walked in without knocking - the dog pinned him to the door, no injuries but he wasn't able to move until the owner called the dog off. Then a few weeks later after the owner had a diabetic hypo, two paramedics walked in and took him (now unconscious) to hospital with absolutely no objections from the dog.

Even well trained dogs can unpredictable, but not always in a bad way.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a phobic person would call the police just for walking your dog off lead. However if an owner is unwilling (or unable) to recall the dog when a member of the public is obviously distressed, then yes that is an offence.

DaveHK's post right at the start about dog owners sometimes being a bit blinkered is currently showing 187 likes and 8 dislikes.

So either that's 187 irrational dog-phobics, or maybe, just maybe, you might be a teensy bit blinkered about the issues caused by inconsiderate dog owners?

I'm not interested in Artif, I only have eyes for the big ginger hairy one.

Mrs Artif or the dog

Shame that everything else they wrote came across as selfish, entitled tosh.

As a dog owner there's a lot I disagree with on this tread but this I agree with! Dogs will want engagement and a crag dog, unless old or recently well exercised, and thus content to doze, is a bored dog.

😂
I'd assumed they were one and the same.

Or maybe you are wrong, and the response to those posts is entirely rational and largely reflective of public opinion.

Chains. Or training.

I'd also agree that some dog owner's are blinkered...

...that doesn't detract from my belief that UKC dog threads attract an over representation of people who dislike dogs. 

Best stats I can find are that 34% of UK households contain a dog and 46% of the population actively like dogs. Stats that aren't really reflected in UKC threads.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't foist my dog on fellow hut users.

I said upthread that UKC dog threads usually go about 50:50 pro and anti, so it looks like we're pretty representative of the general population then.

As I said in the same post, the way this thread has gone shows that even a lot of dog likers don't want dogs allowed in huts.

That's what you said, but it's not what this thread's showing. 

Which is understandable, but what this thread's also shown is that a hell of a lot of people think being worried by the presence of a dog is grounds for the owner facing criminal charges.

That's because even the dog likers think the suggestion in the OP is a bad idea! There is no anti-dog conspiracy on UKC. The OP suggested a shit idea and got shut down for it.

You're just being silly now. I quoted verbatim from the gov.uk website, and a couple of posters got their knickers in a twist about it. 

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

On a walk just last week a large dog off the lead came running upto me, then started jumping up and nipping me, the middle aged female owner managed to eventually control it but kept saying to it "you big daft dog , not everyone likes dogs" I pointed out to her that I do actually like dogs but didn't  particular like her out of control animal  jumping all over me, it seemed to me she was trying to trying to throw the blame my way, I also warned her that if I would have had my grand kids with me I would have taken more direct action, 

Nipping is crossing the line imo and most definatly grounds for reporting as a threatening animal.

Off lead, but as stitchplate said recalled and kept away if someone appears to be uncomfortable, totally acceptable.

Then the grey area where a dog doesn't actually nip/bite but someone is clearly frightened/distressed by it's presence. This is escalated when the owner fails to take control of their dog and especially where they try to victim shame to cover their own failings. 

"Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:

injures someone

makes someone worried that it might injure them"

I got bitten by a dog once. I was taken by surprise when I entered my B+B room after breakfast and it went for me.

Turned out my key opened the door of the identical room on the floor beneath mine.

In reply to:

Never mind huts, my partner who lives in social housing, has just had new neighbours move in, complete with American bully / muscle type dog..

I'm torn between liberal bleeding heart 'it's the dog not the breed' and out & out reactionary arghhh!!

It's accompanied by a little border terrier and they seem mates, I'm taking that as a good sign

Just because you like dogs doesn't mean you have to happily tolerate them in all environments. 

True. I like dogs. But as I said up thread they shouldn't be in huts.

Just because someone happily tolerates dogs in all environments doesn't mean they can't acknowledge that others don't.

In reply to 

I got "bitten" by a dog while out running this morning. Luckily it just got its teeth into my shorts, not me, so no injuries. Shouted at it, shook it off and ran faster. I didn't want to spoil my run by getting into a discussion with the owner, so just ran on.

That owner probably thinks their dog never bothers anyone. 

Neither is appropriate really.  The dog is extremely unlikely to present a danger to her.  If she had a dog of her own, I gather it might be more likely to present a danger to that.  The key question is this: forgetting about the dog for a moment, what are the humans like?

A friend of mine has a big scary-looking pit bull, and took a rescue cat home for a trial stay a couple of years ago not completely sure that they'd get on well enough that she'd be able to keep it.  24hrs later..

Glad you didn't get hurt. 

I got bitten walking into the office a few weeks back. Just on the edge of the Meadows approaching Tollcross I was walking along the pavement with my partner.  A couple with a dog on long (like 2-3m) lead coming the other way.  The dog goes to jump up no action from the owners, I think great I'm going to get paw marks on my trousers. I don't react as it all happens so fast.  The dog doesn't actually jump instead it bites me on the arse!

I point out to the owners that I've just been bitten to which they reply "Arlo doesn't like people". My partner gets a bit upset at that point and says if Arlo doesn't like people why on earth are you walking him on a longish lead through a busy part of Edinburgh. Meanwhile I'm rubbing my arse and just want to escape so I can check whether the skin is broken or not. We pointed out that where I've been bitten is at face level for a kid. The owners seemed a bit stunned but heaven help anyone else Arlo meets.  He needs some proper training/ getting used to humans and if he's going to go biting people possibly a muzzle when out walking as biting people unprovoked isn't on.

Thankfully for me no damage done save a nipped  and slightly bruised backside but I'm now even more wary of dogs. 

The cat is softening the dog up before it steals its dinner. The dog will never suspect.

In 2018, the last year in which I ran loads, I was confronted and pinned down on three separate occasions by pairs of large snarling dogs without their owner in sight. When the owners did appear, one said nothing , the other said "Apologies!" and walked on, and the other said I should run faster. I found each time very scary and I haven't really recovered, in that I still cannot encounter a lone dog as big as them without tensing up and feeling frightened.

This means that the two public spaces two miles from me that I would like to visit are a lot less pleasant than they otherwise would be, and very often I just go somewhere else. One is a Forestry Commission woodland, the other a National Trust site. Both are beautiful, and for both I have annual parking and/or entry membership, but both are overrun with dogs off the lead. Practically everyone I meet has a dog, often more than one. Of course, many dogs are pleasant and so are their owners, but some are not and after the experiences of a few years ago I just do not want to approach a lone dog off its lead. 

I think owners underestimate the impact they have of walking their dogs off-lead in public spaces. They may think they are affecting no-one because they don't meet anyone, or they may think that their dog is fine, but they cannot know how many many people who do not know their dog and don't want to know it are staying away from the places they too would like to visit for fear of meeting them.

That's a classic. They know the dog has a problem, but don't do anything about it. Everyone else is just supposed to put up with it.

Many years ago I had a dog run up, bite my leg and try to pull me off my motorcycle. Luckily big bike boots meant no damage to me. Owner just says "He doesn't like motorbikes". FFS, this was central London, motorbikes everywhere. If he doesn't like them, keep him on a lead when on the street.

There's a regular running route I do that goes (on a bridleway) through a farm with a very scary and aggressive German Shepherd in it, roaming free. It always has a go, every time. I still go that way, but I've spoken to several local people who won't run that route because of this dog. I'm sure the owners are well aware of the impact their dog causes, but they're just dicks.

If someone reported it I expect they'd suddenly start caring. Once it's known to the authorities and they realise what happens if it happens again their attitude will change. There's a lot to be debated on how much is fair to be expected to tolerate from badly controlled dogs, but being attacked is a pretty clear red line.

Or they want to dissuade runners (& maybe others ) from passing through their farm?

What would happen if it were reported to the authorities? 

I’d probably have reported that, on the basis that the owner is a selfish arsehole and that a child may get badly bitten. The best scenario would be that the owner has a eureka moment of awareness after receiving advice from the polis. If the poor dog does end up on a single ticket to the vet then better it happens before it disfigures and traumatises a child. 

I know a couple (not far from the Meadows) whose golden retriever removed most of their infant son’s face. When the cops went round to ’arrest’ the dog, they got, “Oh he’s never bitten anyone before.” Except he had. They still own a dog, an even bigger one, but hopefully better socialised.

I suspect that has something to do with it. Like I said, they are dicks.

I commute on the bike year round and have a few different routes. One of them is sheltered from the wind and a common dog walking destination. 
 

One very windy autumn, I ended up using that route almost everyday for 2 weeks at the same time as a Dalmatian. He would chase me, which didn’t bother me. Then one day, he got closer. Enough for me to be on my guards. I said nothing as I am not frightened of dogs.

The next morning, it came a bit too close and showed teeth. I was ready and booted the shit out of its snout. The owner was apoplectic. I told him verbatim- if you dog bit me, I would have him put down, I saved your dog’s life. The dog was bleeding from the cleat. I proceeded away as if nothing had happened. 

I still meet the pair, the man doesn’t speak to me or answers my greetings but is much quicker getting dog to heel or on leash as for the dog … he gives a wide berth 😆

Yup, she also has a dog in her house and a few cats. It's early days yet but the owners and family seem decent enough so fingers crossed! 

OK here goes

I not surprised this thread has had so many responses--there have been similar threads on mountain project that generated lots of controversy--just search for "dogs at crags." 

A couple of points here:

(1) Lots of talks of "victim shaming" if anybody dares to suggest that getting bitten could at least partly be the victims fault.  Using the term in that way is really just a way to cudgel others into a cowed silence--no real dialogue.  Sometimes, it really is the victim's fault!  There are of course cases of people taunting and abusing dogs.  And there's just a good deal of general dog awareness and dog sense that many people seem to lack.  I'm from the US, but live in Switzerland.  Here, in Kindergarten, they teach dog awareness and how to interact with dogs. I am willing to bet that 99% of the people that have been "viciously attacked" by dogs while out walking, running, whatever, would not have had this experiece if they knew how to read dogs, and imnterwct with them, in a more consccious and capable way.  Dogs are a part of human life.  Leaning how to deal with them is a basic life skill.  And no, learning how to interact with them does not meen threatening to boot them in the head is they get too close.  That's just self-aggrandizing machismo. 

(2) The laws in the UK seem deliberately written to create conflict.  I'm going to assume that you have natural areas where it's perfectly legal for dogs to be off leash, right?  Now, in such an area, if a paranoid/phobic/annoyed anti-dog walker decided that they felt threatened, it seems as if the law would allow this person to bring an owner to court.  But I doubt that happens very often.  I suspect that word "make" in the law leaves a great deal to interpretation.  The law states that somebody can bring a case if a dog "makes' them uncomfortable, but, depending on the individuals, police, lawyers, and judges involved, that could be interpreted and applied quite broadly.  For example, if a dog was sitting there wagging it's tail and somebody too umbrage with it's mere presence, it could be argued that the dog didn't do anything to "make" the perceived victim scared.  On the other hand, if the dog charged at the victim barking and snarking, that's a differenty story.  And most cases would probably involve a dog approaching somebody closer than they expect or want, with behavior that is hard to interpret, "making" the person feel threatened, either justifiably or not.  See point above about learning to interact with dogs.  Anyway, my point here is that the law says one thing, but it almost certainly can and is interpreted quite broadly by the police and courts, or else there would be a wave of claims against dog owners, and probably no off leash places anywhere. 

(3) One of the most interesting points buried in this discussion is the extent to which an individual is responsible for how they make other people feel.  For example, I have a labrador border collie mix who would never bite a human in 1,000 years.  You can litterally take the food out of her mouth, and she would never steal food from somebody's hand, pack, and so on.  She is submissive and obedient.  She is also friendly and excited.  On daily walks in nature, she generlal minds her bussines, running, exploring, sniffing, and so on.  She is very social, so she will approachut immeidtaely gets the message if they're not interested.   If people stop to say hello, she will jump up, lick, wag her tail, cuddle and so on.  She is also jet black, with white teath, and a big pink tongue, so she probably triggers people with fears/anxieties/phobias abotu dogs.  If I'm out walking her, and she passes within a meter or 50 centimeters of somebody or whatever, and they get afraid, I don't consider that my responsability.  As I said above, dogs are a part of life, and learning how to deal with them is a basic skill.  More generaly, there are many things people do that make me uncomfortable or afraid, including tghings that are demonstably threating or pose real threat.  Crowd of drunk chanting soccer fans are scary.  In the US, people who open carry guns and knives are terrifying, much more than any dog.  Plenty of people get scared of others who aren'nt the same race, socio-economic class, and so on.  Basically, when we go out in the world, we confront and deal with, a wide variety of potential threats and potential invasions of our sanctified privacy.  While anti-dog people go on and on about how dog owners are "entitled" I beleive it's often the opposite: people who want dogs (or children) to be perfectly under control, and to remain at all times with a confortable (for them) safe distance, are those that are entitled; they beleive that the world is entitled to let them feel safe all the time, that they are entitled to experience the world as they wish and in no other way at all times, and so on. 

To summarize, I think the better part of society is tolerance, and leaerning how to live with and tolerate dogs is part of that. 

Would I bring my dog to a mountain hut?  It would depend on the mountain hut, the rules, the season, the crowds, and so on.  But I generally don't enjoy mountain huts.  I'd much prefer to bring my tent and go camping with my family, and our dog would sleep in the tent right between all of us, where she belongs.

There have been enough case of generally children being killed by dogs, normally their own family's pet, in the UK in the last couple of years to make me suspect your comparison to drunk chanting soccer fans is a bit silly, because I don't believe I've ever heard of soccer fans, drunk, chanting, or just straight up violent hooligans, killing children - intentionally, unintentionally, and so on. 

No they're not. With the exception of sheep farmers and blind people, it's a somewhat selfish lifestyle decision made by some people with little thought of the responsibilities and consequences.

I have owned dogs but I've never expected random other people to have to accommodate my foibles for canine companions. It was my choice, not theirs. It's my responsibility, not theirs.

I walked along a PROW today; one gate had a sign saying "Caution Guard Geese".  Two of the feckers came right at me with their necks really low to the ground and beaks poking back up.  It's the first time swinging a rucksack towards an animal has failed to dissuade it from coming closer.  One of them pecked my ankle.  

Not much doubt what the landowners are up to there.  

In reply to thread:

A lot of this discussion is coming off as dog owner vs not dog owner, but my experience is far from that.  I maintain a short section of land with a PROW on it that occasionally has periods of a dog curling one out on it daily; the most angry people about this are some of the other dog owners, no doubt in part due to the behavioural traits that lead their dogs to roll in or eat the other dogs' poop.  Likewise, I know more people who have had their dogs seriously mauled by out of control dogs than I do people who've been seriously mauled.  

I've variously been told not to speak sternly to another dog, told them jumping up on me was my fault for eating a sandwich and told that I shouldn't have cycled so fast if I didn't want the dog to chase me.  Given that it was a Rhodesian Ridgeback and came at me the moment it saw me, I rather disagree.  It really is only a minority of dog owners, but a minority of 67 million people is a pox on the outdoors.

@TobyA--A pack of drunk nationalistic men scare me way more than a pack of dogs.  And are demonstably more dangerous, your sensationalist story of dogs killing children notwishstanding.  Have dogs (very, very rarely) killed children?  Undountedly.  But how many more humans have abused and killed children?  Canines are clearly the better species.

@Marek, you're entititled to your opinion, but in my view you are incorrect.  Dogs and humans have litteraly evolved together, to the extent that dogs show specific physical adaptations elicited to draw out corresponding behavior and emotions in humans.  Dogs and humans interact via their senses and nervous systems, including oxytocin and other hormonal feedback loops.  It's no surprise humans form such attachments to dogs and they to us--that's how we've developed over 10s of thousands of years, two linked and inter-dependent species.  Choosing to have a dog is completyely normal.  I agree with you, however, that many dog owners are selfish in the way they treat their dogs, not walking them enough, not stimulating them enough, not caring for them enough, treating them as accessories rather than distinct living thing with rights.  By the way, there's a great line of reasoning that dogs domesticated humans more than humans domesticated dogs.  It's a fun and interesting theory.  Happy to dicuss further--I'm a biology teacher.

Another example of ways in which people typically accomodate human behavior that is threatening to them, but expect dogs to somehow fall into another category, is the case of smoking.  When others smoke, their behavior directly harms others' health.  And yet, we often often accept this, accusing non-smokers of being intolerant.  Once again, I'd rather spend an hour with a pack of dogs than spend an hour in a smoky room.  The latter would be far more dangerous to my health.

Playing and running with a pack of dogs?  Sounds like fun!  I've actually done this.  My daughter and I had the opportunity to play with dozens of members of a husky pack.  They were some of the friendliest dogs I've ever met.  They "attacked" us with licks and cuddles, climbed all over us, lay down across our shoulders and legs, whined and howled, rolled on their backs for belly rubs, and shoved their noses into our faces for kisses, the same way wolves do.   It was pretty much heaven for my daughter and I, but would have been a nightmare for somebody who doesn't like dogs.

This thread reads as a long list of posts from people who like dogs saying that people who experience problem behaviour with dogs should just just suck it up/ do something differently to change the dog's behaviour/ stop complaining about dogs.

Illuminating.

Pre-historically yes, but modern dogs are hundreds of different breeds that have been highly distorted from the early domesticated dog in order to enhance various different behaviours or to encourage various physical traits regardless of behavioural consequences.  The timescales of change during the coexisting period are very different too; dogs cycle generations much faster than humans and less kind selective pressures can be applied to larger broods.

The clue to the difference in modern times is in the term “breeds”.  They’ve been selectively *bred*, not co evolved, in to a broad range of very different animals.

Many humans haven’t been brutally shaped by evolution in recent generations either; whatever the link was between pre-Sumerian humans and their dogs, it’s of almost no relevance to the human/dog interactions in 21st century Britain.

I doubt our ancient hunter gatherer ancestors bread dogs whose heads were so distorted they suffered neurological consequence, or pushed them round in prams on trips to the grooming parlour etc.

Your argument is weak.

My argument is that dogs and humans have developed together and share a special bond (to summarize a complex relationship in naive terms)

Your argument, I suppose, is that dogs and humans once shared a special bond, but that has been destroyed or irrevocably changed by breeding.

I disagree.  I think that the early relationship between humans and dogs, whenever it began, 15,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, 25,000 years ago, created changes in both species, that have endured.  Consider, for example, the pronounced retractor anguli oculi lateralis muscle in dogs (or all breeds) nearly absent in wolves. 

Also, it seems obtuse to deny the bond between dogs and humans consideri gbthat, what, about half the human population (the better half, I would argue) feels a connection to dogs? 

Basically, all the hand-wrining is useless.  Dogs are a part of life, here to stay, and it's up to those with fears, phobias, biases, and preconceptions to put up or shut up.

No, modern dogs are not 'evolved'. Most breeds are flawed* human constructs. Evolution (in the classical sense) stopped with domestication.

* 'Flawed' in the sense that they only partly meet the design requirements.

As would I. For a start it's not either/or. Most people would rather not be exposed to either scenario. Yet when I go for a walk in the park I'll often be surrounded by other peoples' dogs (perhaps they sense that I like them?). But I wouldn't wish the experience on someone who doesn't.

@ Marek:

You are conflating the long period of co-evolution between dogs and humans with the very recent artificial selection of some breeds.  The term "domestication" describes the former more than the latter, especially regarding dogs, because of the special connection we have to and with them. 

Nice overview in the encylopedia of the modern age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_dog

Half of the humans? 4 billion? I'd like to see a source for that figure 

What actual genetic changes do you think human have as a result of the domestication of dogs? 

Your arrogance and entitlement is just staggering. I'm pretty tolerant of dogs, especially when (the majority of the time) they have decent owners. But then someone like you or Dog Dave (upthread) comes along and it clearly demonstrates why so many people have a problem with dogs.

You are the problem.

Hi Robert...well, its not really so much what I think, but what researchers say.

For a start, just scan the link I posted above.  Here's a sample:

"A suite of 311 genes under positive selection in dogs are related to a large number of overlapping loci which show the same patterns in humans..."

And

"A study proposed that immediate human ancestors and wolves may have domesticated each other through a strategic alliance that would change both respectively into humans and dogs. The effects of human psychology, hunting practices, territoriality and social behavior would have been profound."

Thanks for the supportive words, Hoo!

As I said above, it's the dog-haters who feel entitlted.  Unfortunately, their narrow view is contradiucted by reality and our own history.

If you really want to get worked up, go read the threads on mountain project--it's uncanny how similar this is playing out.

I didn't say that humans don't kill humans, and I didn't say adults don't kill children. My partner has worked most of career in child protection social work and I do yearly safeguarding training for my job. I hope your job doesn't mean you get to see how appallingly adults can treat children. But that's not what you said. You said you were scared of "drunk chanting soccer fans", and people shouldn't be scared of dogs.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingd... there have been 18 fatalities in the UK caused by dogs since 2020 - I said I remembered reading the stories in the last few years. Of those 18, 7 were children, mostly babies it seems.

I still can't think of any cases, at any time, anywhere in the world where football fans have killed children. When I'm walking with my little kid and see bull terriers and the like being walked off the lead, I am nervous.

First Google hit:

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1677035/Football-riot-fans-police-...

Entitled because I want go about in public without being assaulted by someone's pet?

Our own history? Your "this is the natural way" arguments are exactly what was used to justify racism, homophobia and the subjugation of women for most of human history. It's bullshit. 

You wrote:

"I hope your job doesn't mean you get to see how appallingly adults can treat children."

I'm a high school teacher!  I can hardly think of job that puts me more closely in touch with how pooly adults can treat children!

Dogs would never treat children like that--canines are far superior beings.

Next time you go out and get afriad when you see a big scary dog with a foaming mouth and sharp pointy teath (a sterotype) why don't you smile, knee down, avert your eyes just slighly, extend you hand with your fingers curled, and let the dog sniff you, and then, if the dog wants, get some free cuddles and kisses?

It might improve your mood

That was a crush. And it was Indonesian domestic match. Not sure what you think is the nationalistic bit going on there. I mean you could have picked Hillsborough or the Heysel Stadium Disaster to actually have UK linked examples, but I still don't quite get what this has to do with you saying a:

We do the same job then.

That sounds nice, but the fact that 7 British children have been killed by dogs since 2020 tends to suggest it isn't actually true.

Next time you go climbing, why don't you do a long abseil on a short rope. 

I'm not scared of dogs. I don't have a problem with them. My wife has a dog, so I share my house with one! I was on a walk today with a friend who brought her dog. It jumped on me to say hello, that's fine. Then when I turned my back for a second the f**ker ate my cake. So it's not in my good books now, but normally we get on fine.

So, I can deal with dogs, right? I don't need to do any work there. But I do not want some stranger's dog jumping on me. My wife's dog is a rescued street dog and it doesn't like other dogs. Whenever she's out with other dogs around she has to keep it on a lead and shout at other dog owners to keep their dog under control and not have it run up to her dog, otherwise a fight will ensue. Every other day she comes home complaining that some moron with no control over their dog has caused trouble. 

The problem is dickheads who won't control their dogs, not people who don't like them.

You’re not very good with this “evidence” thing, are you?  Claims of half of all people on the planet pulled from your ass and denial of factually reported instances of children killed by dogs.

Here, take my shovel…

You really are properly out there, aren't you?

If you'd started out with this I'd have realised that there is no point in responding to you. A bit late, but I'm going to stop now.

A little unfair? But totally understandable from people who don’t “get” dogs. We’ve got a 15,000 year history of canine domestication. They were the first domesticated animal and they’ve been bred to sync with humans to an extraordinary level. 
I totally get that dog people can come across as blinkered but who’s not blinkered when it comes to stuff we love? And dog people absolutely do love their dogs and those dogs have absolutely been selectively bred to be lovable. Every famine, war and near extinction level event in human tribal history over the last 15,000 years has seen humans having to make the decision over dogs- liability/ asset / food source / something I can’t bear to part with. The current crop of dogs are the product of those choices.

This is undeniably powerful stuff that runs right through dog and human DNA. I get dogs (or rather crap dog owners) can be a massive pain in the arse, but as in so much in life, maybe a bit of give and take is in order?

@ Hoo, why don't you read the first sentence of yoiur last post.  Was that civil?  I wonder how the moderators would feel? 

Your hysterical tone and wishes for my death do little to advance your arguments.

Have you heard of irony?

Absolutely a bit of give and take is in order. I don't like dogs, but I agreed to my wife getting one, so I now live with one. That's quite a bit of give from me! It's an absolutely massive load of give if I'm really honest about it.

The only take I want is for strangers to keep their dog under control so that it doesn't harass me, or my wife's dog. Is that too much to ask?

A stranger's dog has no more right than the stranger to invade my personal space.  Perhaps if I bounded up to the owner's family and started licking and pawing one of its children they might understand that but somehow I think not ...

Dogs are wont to share bodily fluids too.  I still shudder and feel a retch at the thought of the labrador that lapped up a load of someone's near liquid excrement, tissue and all, which I was bypassing at the time on the way up Helvellyn from Swirls and then went bounding down to bounce up and greet its people with a friendly lick. 

I think a lot of owners are nose deaf to the unpleasant smell of their creatures.  Not all dogs smell strongly but many many do

That’s pretty interesting as a case study type of thing. How long have you had the dog and has it impacted your attitude to dogs in general?

Absolutely fair. I’d imagine bad dog owners are disliked far, far more by dog people than non dog people, for a whole host of obvious reasons.

Dogs stink unpleasantly.  Why would I want to?

And kindly stop patronising us with lies  I don't have a dog phobia - I simply find many of them dirty smelly and annoying (in ever ever increasing numbers).  I think more people have  a cat phobia

That is a worry for me with my hound. He might smell and I am unaware (same as the house), he doesn't really get washed with soap because it is bad for his coat (and he spends lots of time in the rain which is unavoidable) but I do give him a brush every couple of days.

In relation to staying in a hut, I would rather camp outside with the dog, but that is more to do with sleeping near the other occupants than the dog

No, please teach me…

That's a fair point. 

I'm equally baffled by anyone who wants to share "kisses and cuddles" with something that's been licking its own balls, arse or someone else's turds. 

Bleuuuggghh. No thanks.

Just seen in the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/23/man-charged-over-fatal-dog-... not a child, but still a fatality.

I was pretty much on your side until this. I love big dogs, the bigger the better, but FFS what is so difficult about emphasising with some people's fears? What a shit thread this has turned out to be.

What did the police say when you reported it?

I didn't report it, I was more concerned with checking whether my skin was broken and just wanted to escape the situation to somewhere safe. I kinda wish I had asked for their details etc but I didn't really think about it until afterwards by which point it was too late. 

I assumed everyone had done like me.... skimread his initial 3,000 word post and realised it was nothing but drivel. Then skipped all his other posts, pausing only briefly to downvote each of them.

Maybe I can draw a line under this:

-> Dogs in huts - not popular for many different reasons, definitely no majority or consensus for dogs in huts (if anything a clear majority for no dogs in huts).

-> Some (presumably) dog owners take a different view but (mainly) assuming it's their pooch in the hut (and not a random pack of savage hounds belonging to others).

-> Some very reasonable dogs owners here.

-> Some who are prepared to advocate for dogs regardless of anything anyone says - these people aren't listening and the debate has reached an impasse with them where any more engagement will just reduce to ranting and name calling.

-> Dogs smell.

I think that sums this up, now time for this thread to go to bed.

I disagree, I read everyday and cannot repress a thrill to see which BS has been added (including mine). I will confess to having little skin in the game. I rarely use huts, I grew up with dogs and quite like them but don’t want to own one. 

Pure entertainment Netflix style when DNA is being touted as a pro for dogs everywhere !!!! 😂

Spoilsport! 😅

It's like UKC's answer to the Jeremy Kyle show.

And I meant empathising, not emphasising. Bloody autocorrect, etc.

The law is clear: it is against the law for a dog to be dangerously out of control anywhere. A dog is considered dangerously out of control if it injures someone or makes someone worried that it might injure them.  However a lot of English law turns on the concept of reasonableness - the courts are not going to decide a well-behaved dog is dangerously out of control just because someone with a dog phobia is worried.  It applies where a dog's behaviour is threatening, even though it may not yet have caused actual injury. 

There are around 8500 hospital admissions a year from dog attacks, and 10 fatalities in 2022.

The problem with even well-socialised dogs is that their prime loyalty is to their owner. Their behaviour towards other people can never be entirely predicted.  Huts are usually crowded environments containing a lot of strangers where a dog might easily confuse someone's behaviour as a threat to its owner or to itself. That is why even as a former dog owner I wouldn't want to find an unfamiliar dog in a hut where I am staying.

I've been in a similar situation to you and thought about asking for details. I didn't though because I thought it was likely they would refuse or give false details. If I'd had my phone with me I would have taken photos of dog and owner though. 

Like you I was keen to escape, or in my case get back to the car where I had some antiseptic spray in my first aid kit.