UKC

Hi. 

I am just wondering if anyone has summited Mount Elbrus (particularly if they did it within the last 2 years).

Aside from all the perils a snowy mountain can bring a Russian visit these days has extra pain in the butt logistical problems - mainly that International credit/debit cards, money transfer apps etc. will not work over there so even finding and paying for a guide company seems difficult.

Anyway, the 'climbing' season is several months away (I was thinking June-July of this year) so I have time to try and prepare. 

I am a British passport holder. Initial research shows I will need an invitation letter to get a visa and that I could fly via Turkey to Moscow (though looking on a map Elbrus mountain is located much nearer the Georgian border - so wonder if there might be a better route there rather than flying up to Moscow and then having to get all the way down to the South).

If anyone has any input that will be greatly appreciated (whilst I decide if I can knock of my first 7th summit (Kilimanjaro) and perhaps another peak or two before then).

Thanks. 

Have you considered that perhaps there are quite good reasons for all these additional hurdles?

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/russia
 

as you say - a variety of  problems, the least of which is probably no insurance cover … 

I have climbed on Elbrus four times, summited three, and thoroughly enjoyed it out there.

Prior to the current issues, I found the Russian people matter-of-fact, stoic but always welcoming, polite and helpful. Particularly the Kabardinians in the valley.

Your idea of approaching from Georgia is a no-go in my opinion, both geographically and certainly culturally. The normal approach is via a flight to Moscow, and then Mineralny Vody, followed by a 4hr drive through two regional checkpoints (always an experience) down to Cheget.

We have always done acclimatisation trips into the Syltrankyl lake area, and climbed Mukal peak. Far better than traipsing up and down from the Barrel Huts, and also gaining from one night back in the valley for a wash and to aid acclimatisation. Then we ascend to the Barrels and do at least two, usually three up-and-downs before the summit attempt. The time we failed was due to three days storm bound in the huts, and then not making the Sedlwina saddle due to wind and spindrift.

Anyway, it's all academic given the current political situation. I would be concerned about the red tape involved, and as someone above mentioned too, insurance. I wouldn't be concerned about the reception from ordinary Russians, though not getting into any political conversations would probably be advisable.

I am not sure whether any operators are running trips right now, but see that Adventure Peaks aren't for one, so that says something.

Haven't been to the Russian Caucasus in 15 years but always used to be easy to get an invitation. It's just a transaction. I imagine there is a way around the payment issue. When I visited Iran (also many years ago), there was a similar issue with international payment methods, however the protocol was to pay money into a bank account upon arrival. I imagine someone has set up a similar system. 

Easy getting to the Caucasus from Moscow. Just take a domestic flight or overnight train. I'm sure you can check the status of crossing the Georgian/Azeri borders with a bit of research. Dagestan and Chechnya were always best avoided as a foreigner. Don't know it that's changed. 

I'm interested in knowing whether the 20 dislikes were objecting to going to Russia or doing something as tone deaf as the 7 summits.

Apologies for using as  ****tish a ****erism as ("tone deaf")

i expect something to do with...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c1vw6q14rzqt

personally i think putting personal ambitions above the suffering caused by yet another unnecessary war with suffering on both sides is unjustifiable.

PS i haven't down voted

You may have to wait until Russia breaks apart and the Caucasus Federation declares independence from Russia.

My gut feeling is that going through Georgia is going to be a waste of time and money. There are no direct flights from the UK to Georgia, so you're flying through Turkey anyway, and then you'll have to take another flight or drive through Verkhny Lars, which is neither quick nor reliable. Just go through Moscow or find a flight straight to Mineralnye Vody (say, via Istanbul).

You can carry up to 10000 US Dollars in cash through the customs green channel (no declaration required); no way you're going to need more than that.

I climbed it ~100 years ago, did Kazbek in Georgia a few years later and spent fifteen years or so with professional links and work scenarios across Russia with offices, colleagues and travel across the country. In that era, I felt safe and welcomed and among a civilised people, and when I stood up in a conference in 2015 and made sharp comments about the Crimea invasion, Russians were among those who applauded. My stand was not heroic or important. 

Life changes and I haven't been back for around nine years - during which time that society has changed. Without writing an ill-founded geopolitical thesis, it's not strictly that society has changed but that one faction/demographic has risen to overpower others/another. My Ukrainian friends are unimpressed that I retain a few Russian contacts I believe in, but I do. 

I'm British. My government, and I personally, have sent money to attempt to kill and repel Russian soldiers. I wish it weren't so, but the decision wasn't intellectually difficult. Further, the government of my country is attempting to do economic harm to the Russian government. 

If you choose to attempt discretionary travel there and spend your money, it seems to me that you're as close as makes no difference to aiding an enemy. Of course, you have the right to give no sh1ts about what I think, but for the avoidance of doubt, I'd have a low opinion of you. 

Let's put that aside. Over a few years I've kept an eye on things with an implication on my personal safety. There was a Brit back in the good years who had partied hard one night and then took his first business trip to Russia the next day wearing the jeans he had worn, in the back pocket of which was the remains of some marijuana or similar. It was found, and the Russians applied Russian law as it is their right to do, and he found himself in jail in Russia for several years. I don't know if or when he got out. 

Directly relevant to you: look up Matt Pycroft's Adventure Podcast and in the last nine months you'll find a four-part series by a Brit who kept an audio diary during a solo journey in the Siberian north that had begun just before the invasion of Ukraine. I suggest you give it a listen as you'll find it parallels your intended plan, except that he was in a place with no separatists, military significance or difficult history of the sort that you would be visiting. He spent a lot of time contemplating how long a stay he might have in Russia. At that point, it may have been simple carelessness that had the Russians allow him home without holding him as a pawn - for prisoner exchange as was done for Viktor Bout, or to have him speak on behalf of the regime under duress, or some other nightmare. 

I invested important parts of my life and effort in Russia. Nothing I did was of any political significance or interest - I was unimportant, under the radar. However, I am near-resigned to the fact that it may be that I never travel to that country again, because it will involve a big change of a lot of people for me to be confident that I would be allowed home freely and without consequence. Am I paranoid ? It's worked for me so far. 

Go safe. 

Y

Alternative approaches for you to consider - perhaps more positive. 

1) Do  the other six first. By the end of that (I assume you don't already have a large mountaineering cv, I may be wrong to do that) your view on whether and how much Elbrus matters to you may have changed, and the politics may have changed. 

2) If you consider you're beneath, or above, matters of international morality and you have the full adventure ethic, go get yourself citizenship of somewhere that will make you welcome in Russia. I'm sure there are countries for which you could get some quals for citizenship, and wouldn't attract the problems of a Brit passport in that place. 

I'd given a down vote on the original post, but my intention (can't speak for the others) was to signal "unwise idea" due to the various  complications of travelling (insurance - think medical/rescue as lost bags etc are lesser impact), lack of consular assistance etc, when foreign office prescribes it as "No Travel"

Hmm... That's an interesting point of view... And pretty challenging to have to move country every time the government starts a war, I'd say. Your profile suggests you lived in England at some stage, where have you been living since we joined the war in Yemen? I guess you were also abroad for the previous several years when we were still warring in Syria and Iraq? You didn't spend any time in the UK in the 2000s when we were warring in Afghanistan did you? Or before that in Iraq? Or before that in the Falklands?

The problem with "I'm not going to visit country X because of their foreign policy" is that even a cursory review of your own country's foreign policy is likely to reveal a significant level of hypocrisy.

Personally, I don't think you need to agree with the foreign policy of a country in order to go on holiday there. This isn't to say that I'd go to Russia, I wouldn't.

In reply to the OP:

Optics and morals aside, you do need to consider that nationals of countries that prominently support Ukraine run a fair risk of being arrested on trumped up charges and then held indefinitely as the Russian government negotiates for something political/military in nature in exchange for your release. Thus you should really only fix to go on this trip if you both want to support Russia in the Ukraine war as a negotiating chip and would like to spend a few weeks/months/years in a Russian prison.

Great post, put I think the following is a little harsh.

Visiting Russia and support local communities will bring them benefit and there's a very good chance they don't support the war. We want to hurt the Russian government, not it's people.

And I get that by supporting the people, some of that money will trickle up to the government, so your point does hold truth, I just don't think it's as clear cut as it comes across in your post.

I worked in Qatar for a while, I remember thinking about the morals of the Qatari government being my client given their record, but my work involved designing infrastructure, and everybody should have a right to clean water and basic infrastructure needs, so I didn't believe I actions supporting the Qatari government were morally unjust. Supporting local communities in Russia isn't dissimilar to me.

Although, I still wouldn't go because henwardians point about being a bargaining chip is very valid.

I'm just not convinced supporting sanctions on the Russian government whilst supporting local Russian communities is necessarily hypocritical. But I'm not certain of this opinion and I'm in two minds.

Your points are fair and I think we'd have an amicable discussion face to face - would be my aim with the original poster too of course. 

My regretful belief is that a significant proportion of people in Russian communities do support the war - or if not the war itself, the tough nationalistic regime that brings them pride. My personal view is that there was a period where there was a worthwhile cohort of progressive/liberal/democratic people who might have made change - but now the regime relies on the support of older and poorer who rely on TV rather than VPN internet, language skills and critical thinking. Of course it's hard to generalise or to be sure and easy to present "evidence" for one view or another. 

Also, I don't believe Russia needs our help economically. The combined effect of isolationism and sanctions has been to stiffen self-sufficiency. The country has agriculture and manufacturing and is not a basket case. Sure, plenty of rural drunken poverty, but quantitatively and qualitatively different from the poster children for famine. Do local communities deserve our help ? Not for me - YMMV. 

I agree with your principles - I've worked for some places which I wished were different, for the same reasons - support the people not the regime. For me, however, with Russia right now it is very, very clear. I think I could find you Russians who would prefer you didn't come, or offer support, or validation, because they would prefer you didn't give succour to the regime. 

It clearly didn't come across clearly in my original. If you go to Russia on a British passport I think you risk becoming a bargaining chip. Same as henwardian. 

Y

Graeme said "unnecessary war", not just "war". Someone at least thought it was necessary for the UK to engage in all the conflicts you mention.

Graeme was also clearly talking about choosing not to seek out some countries for a leisure visit rather than suggesting it's immoral to remain as a resident of those countries, which was a wild extrapolation by henwardian.

To be honest, I think that if you want to distinguish between "war" and "unnecessary war", the obvious line is between defending your own territory and attacking another nation's territory. By this measure, every war the UK has fought in the last 50 years or more was an "unnecessary war" with the exception of the Falklands war (though I'm happy to be corrected if I missed one).

If your bar for "necessary war" is as low as "someone thought it necessary", then I'd say every war ever fought would be classed as a "necessary war". The problem is that if you start getting into justifications for war, it's a world of infinite shades of grey... and the shades shift and transform when you change from one persons point of view to anothers... and even if you did stick with one person, the shades change again as time passes.

True.

But it's always interesting to consider what you find in the mirror if you look there long enough.

Since ships are generally regarded in maritime law as extensions of the territory of the registering nation ("floating islands") it could be argued that the recent actions in Yemen did count as 'defensive actions'.

Of course laws being what they are you could also argue the opposite. Given a suitable fee.