UKC

Long term lurker; first time poster...  <<waves>>

I'm 50 next summer. Its long been a desire to climb a "big" (4000m+ for sake of argument) peak as part of the commiseration process. It started out as Mont Blanc "because biggest", but comments here and elsewhere are that as an experience its just a bit "meh", so I've been casting a search a little wider. Monte Rosa has been recommended by a few people, as has Barre Des Ecrins and Lagginhorn west ridge. Open to other suggestions...?

The criteria are European; aesthetically pleasing - a proper pointy summit, not just a slightly higher bit of plateau; a decent bit of exposure/pucker factor (ridgelines good); some hands on rock (I don't want "just a big walk"); maybe a bit of pre-summit refuge action  A good mate has just done the Eiger via the Mittelegi Ridge which seemed to fit the experience critera, although (just) sub 4k and he’s done it so I’d feel a bit copycatish doing it too. I'd be aiming for late June/early July as I'm likely to be working in S. France then)

About me - I'm mostly a cyclist (mountain biker, but road and gravel too). I've been doing outdoorsy stuff all my life - started off hiking, but that took a backseat once I learnt to ride a bike age 19. I'm in decent general condition. I've done most of the obvious english/welsh scrambles and some french VFs; a small amount of "proper" winter walking with axe and big crampons (self taught - most of my local Peaks snow walking is fine in microspikes). Work involves a certain amount of industrial access - I was briefly IRATA trained and still climb stuff/do rigging on a regular basis. Pre Covid we climbed indoors regularly as cross training - could lead 6b (+ on a good day), toprope a 6c. I've raced bikes at 3k+m, skiied, and walked at high 2k+m this summer, so have had a taster of thin air.

...but I'm under no illusions about doing this solo and unguided. (the missus is utterly uninterested in coming too).

Biggest question is how to go about sourcing a guide. English speaking as a minimum, but ideally *actually* english just to avoid any confusion in sticky situations. There's also a question of what skills I need to polish up beforehand, which I guess is partly subject to which summit. Stuff like I understand the principles of building a belay, but have never actually done it; no idea about glacier travel, roped up etc. 

...so advice and ideas please...?

(kinda also ties in with this thread: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/expedition+alpine/4000m_rock_ridge_in_big... )

Thanks

BL

In reply to BikingLampy:

Do you really mean the Northeast (Mittellegi) Ridge (D) Difficile?

Seems a hell of a big jump from English/Welsh scrambles and a few "proper" winter walks with an ice axe

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: You'd be surprised.  It get's 'guided' quite a lot.  Ditto the Matterhorn- I work with someone who's only alpine routes are the Hornli, and whatever his quide took him up as a warmup.

Maybe an option for the OP

In reply to BikingLampy:

Mont Blanc is wonderful. The Bosses give plenty of exposure and the summit is elegant and the views stunning.

In reply to BikingLampy:

You should have no problem finding a British mountain guide if you plan early. They might then suggest something based on how well you do on a warmup peak. 

Switzerland has the best 4000ers at a moderate grade. Although you could consider the Gran Paradiso as an introductory 4000 before something bigger and/or harder.

My suggestions would be the Nadelhorn or the Zinalrothorn. The Nadelhorn hut approach (Mischabel hut) is a via ferrata route in itself.

Mont Blanc is spoiled somewhat by its popularity and the calibre of mountaineer it attracts. 

In reply to BikingLampy:

Barre des Ecrins ticks most of your points, usually climbed from a hut (either Ecrins (closest) or Glacier Blanc), glacier approach but the last bit is a scrambly ridge ending in a defined summit (ADinf overall according to https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/barre_des_ecrins-15442/barre_des_e...). And if you are going to be in the south of France its probably the closest. Just be aware that guides often stop at the slightly lower Dome des Ecrins as that avoids the summit ridge, but is still, if only just, over 4000m.

In reply to Pero:

The Nadelhorn´s a good shout. The hut is high (3400m+) and you already have to use your hands on the rock just to get there. There´s the easy Ulrichshorn nearby (3900m+) for an acclimatisation tour and for getting used to crampons and glacier travel; the Nadelhorn itself is 4300m+. The normal route after the initial easy glacier approach is mostly a rock ridge; there is however an exposed snow ridge which can be nasty if it´s iced up, but you´d be fine with a guide.

In reply to BikingLampy:

You've got a great deal to ponder. The 4000s cover a multitude of styles and difficulties. And, even allowing for the physical demands (some of the hut walk-ins alone feel huge -5-6hours) once you've moved beyond high altitude walking to technical ground, even an AD ridge could feel super challenging and downright dangerous even with the simplest of errors. (As Gordon noted, the Mitteleggi is not a good option...)

Check out his outfit's webset.

Highmountainguides.com

If you work through their blog you can see the sorts of things they've been doing over the years. This will give you a better idea of the right objective...

JC

In reply to BikingLampy:

I would contact a guide directly (google is your friend, there is a database of guides) and book a week (if you want an easy life, Frost Guiding can sort you out 1:1 guiding with accomodation and everything included. They also have an option of doing 'easier' stuff first half of week with 1:2 ratio, then going 1:1 for second half). Be honest with your experience and goals and they will sort you an excellent challenging week. You would be good to have many, many aspirations and then hopefully you can do 1 or 2 of them. Going to the alps with an attitude of 'I want to climb the matterhorn' is a recipe for unneccessary disappointment as plans are so frequently thwarted by conditions/weather/hut availability. Given your experience, I probably wouldnt look to go above AD if its a long committing route, trust me, they are plenty stressful enough.

have a great trip! 

In reply to BikingLampy:

What a lovely "problem" to have. 

Having objectives is good, but probably not worth getting hung up on any single specific objective unless you've got a lot of time flexibility. Why ? Weather - I've had much more productive times in the Valais (Saas, Zermatt valleys) than out of Chamonix, and with climate change route choice has become much more of a season & time-specific thing than it was fifteen years ago, so "guidebook" and "when I did it it was..." advice is less relevant. 

And that's what the Guide does for you. You've given a nice clear expression of what you've done and what you want. A Guide will appreciate that and make a good judgement of what they trust you on, what's safe in the time that you're available, and what they see when you're on the hill tied to you. This is not French Ski School where "Ben' ze 'nees" is the extent of their language skills - a modern guide is competing for your business, doesn't want to be killed by a misunderstanding and is thus highly incentivised to be an effective communicator, whatever their nationality. It's a regulated industry... reach out to a handful, follow your gut instinct. 

Google is your friend in finding the guide directories for Cham or wherever. Feels like a four-day engagement; two trips of a walk-in/summit-day each, first to acclimatise you and for your guide to be confident you're not a loon, second to tick your objective. 

Training ? I can't think of any specific tech skill, but my opinion is that rapid, confident, safe descent of steep loose ground while fatigued is a very, very underrated ability. 

Take a look at the Dent du Geant. May be awful advice if more has fallen off it lately, but it has distinctive visual appeal and bags of exposure while avoiding snow ploddage. Lagginhorn N ridge nice too but I hear the approach is even more exposed than when I did it 10,000 years ago. Hornli doesn't sound like madness (but nor does it sound like fun, following someone on a short rope at high speed in a clusterf-ck queue for hours.) 

Y

In reply to BikingLampy:

Thoughtful approach. I had similar aspirations at a similar age and like you had no Alpine experience though probly a bit more Scottish winter. My solution was to sign up for a Martin Moran course which culminated with summitting MB via the Trois Monts route; quite busy but not in the least “meh”. I learned a lot on the course, to the point that I’ve done a few more trips since, after joining a climbing club. But the 4000’ers I’ve climbed (PD or PD+) I’d describe so far as “hillwalking plus” - glacier plodding makes few demands unless someone falls down a crevasse - not yet happened fortunately - and the best summits I’ve been on have been scrambly ridges. My wish list (chances diminishing with age) include Finsteraarhorn, Dent Blanche and SE ridge of the Weismeiss. I’ve also several times about tackling the voie royale or the Italian approach to Mont Blanc but I think I had just as much fun on the Mont Blanc du Cheilon at 3900m.

So if resources permit I’d recommend a course (Hamish Frost took over Martin Moran’s alpine enterprise as far as I can recall, a few years before his passing) rather than just a guide, as you’ll get more company and a bigger range of experience from it. Or join a club with form for doing alpine trips.

In reply to BikingLampy:

Sounds like it might be worth doing a week or two course. There are a few UK companies working in the Alps who will guarantee an English speaking guide and will teach you all you needed to know, take you up a couple of smaller peaks and then the big one. They'll arrange the huts and other logistics too.

I just did the beginner summer alpine mountaineering course, designed around covering skills and doing your first 4000m, with ISM. Week long, in a group of four. Our guide was English, though I think others were a mixture (but all English-speaking). Ironically I was the only English course participant and ended up explaining the odd phrase to the others (rather humbled by how well everyone else was learning things not in their first language).

Sounds like it might be the sort of thing for you to learn skills, though you may of course learn more and get to do a sexier peak if you go one-on-one with a guide.

In reply to Yanchik:

Your training part should be read by all.  Descending steep loose ground is paramount.  Several times in the BC mountains I've gone down during a thunder storm.  Got wet, got cold, but ate Mexican food, sometimes.  Avoided rappelling by easy-ish down climbing.  I have climbed and been critical of Fred Beckey's routes, but he was a master in the mountains.  He advocated for fitness and confidence.

Andrew

In reply to BikingLampy: you sound like the ideal client that most guides would be happy to have a weeks climbing . Skim reading  the replies so far I don’t think this idea has been mentioned . A lot of BMG guides now spend the summer months  back in the uk or away from the alps . Why not decide on one you think you will get along with and book them for a day summer climbing in the lakes or Scotland  or n wales.  Learn sone skills and come up with a plan with them for a weeks alpine trip . I reckon you will get much more out of your week with them as a result . I have no experience of him as a guide but Tom Ripley used to post on here all the time back in the day and has recently qualified as a guide . I d say you would have a great time going with him.

In reply to colinakmc:

Ahem!! It was Graham Frost...the other Frost. 

In reply to Frostguiding:

Sorry! Call it a senior moment….

In reply to BikingLampy:

The Italian side of the Alps also has amazing huts/food which surely has to come into the equation 🙂 Gran Paradiso I think is a nice 4000er to start on and goes through some lovely scenery. Monte Rosa also very good. If you're acclimatised and fit and get a good weather window you could tag a load of 4000ers over a few days in that range. Personally I would do something non technical for your first one to get used to the whole high altitude thing.

As an aside I did a fair bit of climbing in the Alps in my 20s. After a long break of 12 years Ive just got back from a trip. Never ever had any issues back then, but I personally would only ever go back in June/early July like you're planning. We saw a lot of rock fall (and got caught in a big one.. we were very very very lucky not to have been hit) and the glaciers quickly became slush once the sun came up. I think August is just too late now with summers getting hotter. That's just my 2 cents I'm no expert. 

In reply to BikingLampy:

Hey,

Cool post and cool project.

I’m a British Mountain Guide based in the Chamonix Valley.

I’ve sent you a PM

Tom

In reply to James Harker:

It starts from one of the most beautiful valleys in the Alps.

In reply to James Harker:

We're in the Alps now. Conditions are still generally good, although the early season routes are out, of course

In reply to BikingLampy:

I've no advice re guides, sorry. But have you thought of Piz Bernina via the biancograt? 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/piz_bernina-3406/biancograt_norh_r...

The most striking terrain and at 4049m it fits your criteria. Slightly less busy than the main alps being in the east. We tried it back in 2017 but sadly didn't get a good weather window for it. In hindsight, we could have made a push, but were a bit inexperienced at the time. 

In reply to Pero:

The glaciers seemed in good condition on the monte Rosa range too to be honest, but I was just more surprised how rapidly they turned by mid morning compared to last time I was there. 

In reply to BikingLampy:

Italian Haute Route would be a good trip

Pollux, Castor, Liskamm (rather narrow in very strong winds) and onto Monte Rosa

We did not do the Briethorn and traversed straight across - absolutely magical days in the mountains! 

In reply to BikingLampy:

Thanks for the comments, all. Food for thought.

I must admit I hadn't thought in terms of taking best part of a week to do the climb - I was thinking 2-3 days - but I guess it makes sense that a guide isn't going to want to take on some random numpty and head into potentially hazardous terrain without doing some exploratory stuff with them first.

I'm working on a mountain bike race mid/late June that starts in the Queyras and ends up at the coast and the plan was to drive down to that rather than fly, have the missus join me afterwards and do a week of generally outdoorsy stuff and VF routes, gently heading back north then tack "The Big Climb" on the end of that, but it looks like I'm underestimating stuff. Further thought required

@Tom Ripley - got your mail, will reply anon...

In reply to BikingLampy:

4000m undoubtedly can and has be done on that time scale but it's liable to be risky and unpleasant.  I had a friend join me on a trip one time and despite some acclimatisation time was close to being incapacitated due altitude shortly after summitting at 4300m. They quickly recovered once back down to the valley but I had to carry a lot of their kit down the mountain for them.

Lagginhorn or Weissmies are probably the mountains for you if you can find the time to acclimatise.

If not a quick jaunt up and down Allalinhorn might limit the suffering but wont give the proper alpine experience.

In reply to BikingLampy:

Ace - looking forward to it

In reply to BikingLampy:

I'd agree with the Nadelhorn suggestions, done a few easy 4k peaks and it was my favorite. Had it to ourselves too, probably something to do with the ridiculously cold day.