UKC

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone had experienced this before. The attached photo shows 'bobbling' on the back of a four year old Lhotse jacket. There's no sign on the inside of the jacket but the area at the back where the photo feels like the fabric is coming away from the rest of it. If that make sense at all. 

In my opinion, I've looked after the jacket as best as I know how to. I would say it's had medium usage and all on the wet/snow hill walking side rather than Scottish winter climbing. 

I really can't afford to replace it at the moment and was hoping to get at least another season out of it. 

Photo: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nu9iDmcaKSyLL33Y8

In reply to OneBeardedWalker: What do Mountain Equipment say? I'd say delamination, not normal on a four old goretex pro jacket

In reply to wbo2:

I've not contacted ME yet. I wasn't really sure what it was or where I would stand on it to be honest.

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

I’ve seen that quite a few times in the past.  Not on a waterproof jacket though iirc, but certainly on other garments with laminated layers eg windproof gilet, trousers, and a mid layer. Usually at high crease areas.

Never bothered to do anything about it as it was just aesthetic really in my cases, but always assumed it was a separation of the layers.

Looks the same on your jacket. Where it is, will it may have little or any effect in use? Have you tried it out in the rain for leakages?

Get in touch with retailer and/or manufacturer for their comments.

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

The jacket is delaminating. Unfortunately it's the start of the end for it. 

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

i have exactly the same and over quite a considerable area. It seems to be wear areas ie harness and or waist strap of rucksack.  I cannot recall when i bought it but fairly early after  goretex pro was introduced = quite a long time ago.

I have continued to use the jacket for scottish winter and for extensive walking. It is difficult to be precise  ( is any internal dampness due to internal moisture - rain entering through the head/sleeves/zips - or actual fabric leaking ) but my impression is that the fabric is still sufficiently waterproof for use, particularly if you are using it for one or two day long trips before you can dry it again.    In my experience all goretex loses its ability to ' bead ' the rain after a couple of seasons.  

Having said that i believe that all manufacturers of fabrics are having to remove one of the key waterproofing so called ' forever chemicals '  and it remains to be seen whether the new waterproofing solutions will be as good.

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

Over the last few months I have returned three ME jackets because of similar issues. I had a Shivling that was delaminating across the hood after two and a half years use: it's replacement started to do the same after a few days. These were replaced by ME although reluctantly on the first occasion. I also had a Lhotse that was starting to show the same symptoms and  this was replaced  by Ellis Brigham who could not have been more helpful.

If you have the original receipt the ME Guarantee should cover you. If not I would go direct to Gore-Tex.

I continue to get ME kit as I think that their design is still good and their sizing consistent plus the hoods are brilliant. Talking to my peers working in the outdoors there are quality problems are across all brands and the only thing that varies is the customer service.

A new Lhotse is £500 rrp. I would try and get it replaced.  

In reply to martin09:

Dirt builds up on the outside of a jacket and that helps prevent beading as the water pools on the surface fabric (this is different to the gore text membrane). The dirt helps brake the surface tension of the water droplets so they sit on the surface of the jacket rather than beading off like new. Regular washing and reproofing of your jacket will enhance performance. 

Unfortunately in the past the chemicals used to make the outside of the jacket bead involved nasty fluro carbons that are bad for the environment. Newer waterproof are more environmental but require more after care instead. 

Gore have some info...

https://www.gore-tex.com/en_uk/support/care/dwr

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

I once met a Norwegian called Odd Bobbling.

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

If this is a first gen Lhotse then it will have the micro gridded face fabric, I had a first gen Lhotse and it did the same. It's delamination and will get progressively worse, however the fabric still remained waterproof on mine it eventually got to the size of a football on the base of the back. One issue I thought the fabric suffered from is a lack of adhesion/lamination as the delamination happened almost immediately. The reason for the delam is probably the fibres having a different diameter and hence tiny gaps in the lamination (those that are the main and those that are the ripstop). Most manufacturers have now decided that laminating a micro ripstop face fabric isn't such a good idea.

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

I've had the same issue with 2 Lhotse jackets. One was replaced under warranty. The replacement started doing the same bobbling and started leaking, even though I looked after it pretty well and did the occasional nikwax treatment. The jacket was little used and had no signs of abrasion or wear and tear.

Contacted the seller, was asked to send it in. Made the mistake of putting it in a normal 30degree wash before sending it off;  the care instructions don't specifically discourage from using liquid detergent, neither on the ME nor on the goretex website.

The conclusion was that ME sent it back to me without any further action. Pretty disappointing as the jacket had seen little action and was generally well looked after. Certainly makes me reluctant to splash out another £400 for a jacket that might fail after moderate use.

In any case, I'd recommend you speaking to the point of sale to see if the delamination can be looked at by the shop/ME.

In reply to Mattia:

Thank you for this and for all the responses. 

I contacted Mountain Equipment and after a few emails back and forth supplying photos and what-not, I was advised that, given the age of the jacket (4 -5 years) it is when they would expect to show signs of wear. As far as they could judge from looking at photos it shouldn't impact the performance of the jacket at this stage. Keeping it cleaned and re-proofed will extend the lifetime of the jacket - something that I did anyway as a matter of course. 

Overall, I was impressed with the customer service from ME. They seemed interested and took their time to understand the issue. I am obviously still sad about the jacket though. I reckon that I can get one (maybe two?) more winters out of it and then it will be consigned to a 'walking to the pub' jacket - hopefully not too an ignoble end for what has been an absolutely bomber hardshell. 

It does make me think twice about options when looking at other hardshells £400/£500 is a lot to spend every 4-5 years... or is it? £100 per year for something solid. Perhaps I will look at the Paramo route...but I'll leave that can of worms. 

Cheers for all of the advice and suggestions - much appreciated.

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

I've got a 25 year old Karrimor goretex jacket, the red one with the 4 slanting pockets. It's used as my gardening and car cleaning jacket now. It's still waterproof and has no signs of delamination.

Unfortunately  as others said, it's in terminal decline 

Speak to M.E. first, but if no joy...

Even though it's in decline, OP might be able to slow the inevitable by wash in treating with a very generous quantity of nikwak tx direct, air drying then Paint on with a paint brush some neat tx direct over that patch, air drying once more than when bone dry, 10 minutes in a cool tumble dryer 

If it's beyond that... not sure where that is in pic, my jackets ended up leaking in the shoulder area. Maybe you can buy some 2 ply goretex-copy fabric and pay someone to sew it on over the area and make it into a jackets with contrasting colour shoulder area? Not as good as a new jacket but might add a good few years onto it.

In reply to OneBeardedWalker:

I wore out a Lhotse jacket after 5 years of heavy use - I lived in Orkney for 4 of those years and used the jacket pretty much every day during 4 long Orkney winters. I didn't suffer the delamination problem that you describe, but the zip started to fail, and the inner fabric started to wear away in places. Can't complain about the fabric, but the zip starting to go was a disappointment. But I can't complain too much, at the time it was the best jacket that I have ever owned, and I still use it for gardening and occasional forestry work.

I decided to replace it with the ME Tupilak, basically a simplified version of the Lhotse using 80denier fabric throughout rather than a 40/80 mix, feels much more robust, but is no heavier. Have had it 3 years now and no sign of any delamination.