UKC

Curious to hear thoughts on this, in absence of any hard data.

I didn't have a dog until a few years ago so may not have paid that close attention to them until recently, but in my memory dog gates were really quite common in many places I used to walk (although by no means universal).  However it feels like they have become less so in recent years.

What particularly got me thinking was a blocked-up dog gate on the path up to the Langdale Pikes from the New Dungeon Ghyll. This looked like it had been done recently, and extremely deliberately, making me wonder if there is perhaps a wider pattern of landowners getting rid of them, presumably with the intention of disuading less confident / less mobile dog owners from walking on certain paths (or some other reason)?

Example of what the stile looks like now: https://ibb.co/5khc4cY

And what it used to look like: https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5568562

In this case I'm not sure if the stile is owned by the national trust (owns land to the south of the wall and has a sign on the stile) or whoever owns the land to the North. Worth noting that although the area is access land this route is also a public footpath.

Of course landowners are under no obligation to make life easy for dog owners despite the theoretical right to bring them as a 'usual accompaniment', but personally I do appreciate it when dog gates are provided (I know some athletic dogs can bound over wooden step stiles, but mine has never managed it). Slippery-when-wet and wobbly stiles with awkward ground on each side can be awkward to navigate safely at the best of times, let alone when maneuvering a dog over as well (this is most fun when encountered as a surprise when it's getting dark, raining, and you're knackered from a long day :p ). Ironically I'm also much more likely to take the dog off lead when lifting it over a stile, to avoid it getting in the way or catching on things,  whereas with dog gates it's often possible to pass it through. 

So anyway, curious if other people think there is a wider pattern here, or just a selective memory! Also thoughts on  changes like the above example, if anyone else has encountered things like this and knows what the reason might be?

Not sure, but I'd be more concerned about that weird black land octopus that is attempting to devour your dog...

My primitive attempt at anonymity, apologies! Can promise that in real life my dog is very cute and thankfully unafflicted by the black land octopuses of The Lakes.

I would agree that I have seen quite a few dog gates that have been removed but it is almost universally a case of poorly made gates falling apart and not being replaced.

Many dog gates were constructed to the design shown in the geograph image and they were never going to last very long.

local news (Cumbria and the Borders) has had lots of stories about a big increase in dogs attacking and killing sheep.  perhaps the sign on the stile explains a perception leading to a lack of willingness to keep in repair?

(I've witnessed the aftermath of a dog attack above Pooley Bridge one morning.  Six or seven sheep and young lambs strewn along a line several hundred yards in length coming north down from Arthur's Pike all with their throats or sides/bellies torn out.)

Not wanting to derail things, but just curious; what made you want to anonymise your dog?

General Dog Protection Regulation

Generally prefer to be anonymous for privacy I guess, and to avoid idle discussion being linked to a face out of context... also specifically with dogs I have heard some odd stories about things people will try & also don't want my dog pictured next to a poster like that on the stile for potential misuse!

Even more curious now about the odd stories! But I get not wanting them pictured next to the sign. That makes sense

Possibly, yes can see a general wish not to encourage dogs for livestock protection reasons, and is the simplest answer I suppose - make life harder for dog walkers and maybe we'll give up!

It is interesting as I understand dogs worrying sheep has always been a concern of farmers and yet dog gates like that one can't be that old - there must have been a significant change in perception if over presumably a few decades they go from making arrangements for dogs to deliberately removing them. Possibly a reflection of both the greater numbers of people out walking in the hills these days and the greater number of dogs (although tried to Google some statistics and got wildly different estimates of the numbers of dogs so not sure what the true change has been over the years!)

Interesting to hear it's been more of a news topic recently... wonder to what extent perception has changed vs actual numbers. NFU note that the cost of dog attacks rose by 50% between 2019 and 2022, which would indicate a real step change in the volume of attacks: https://www.nfumutual.co.uk/media-centre/uk-cost-of-dog-attacks-rises-by-50...

However the value of sheep also seems to have increased by about 40% over that period so not sure if that just means that the real increase has only been around 10%, which while still noticeable isn't so dramatic... 

Or maybe another option might be a change in farming practices - maybe the farmers used to rely on taking their dog up those paths themselves but are now more likely to take a long way round on a quadbike or something?

I guess that's a factor - just another asset to upkeep and unless there's a good reason to then why bother! It is interesting that they must have felt it worthwhile to build them in the first place though, a few decades ago or whenever they were built.

Legally, landowners own and are responsible for the maintenance of stiles and gates across public rights of way with councils being obliged to contribute to these costs.

In practice, a range of things happen. Landowners do the work and don't ask for the council contribution, national park rangers or parish councils or volunteers replace or repair them with the landowner's agreement, councils supply the materials and the landowner does the work, or councils just do it all themselves.

As you say, there is no obligation on a landowner to provide or agree to dog gates. Some who are pro access will do it anyway, some are persuaded to have them after dog walkers, sadly, damage or cut adjacent fences to let their dog get around a stile.

I haven't noticed many around here being blocked up or fenced off recently, but if it is happening in other places it will be a combination of landowners getting fed up with badly behaved dogs and all those individuals and organisations mentioned above being strapped for cash and having to concentrate on continuing to provide access for people rather than their dogs.

I dunno but it's a real problem for my tall and princessy greyhound, who can't get under gates or jump over them, nor can I lift him (40kg). So we can't do walks unless I know the fences & hedges have kissing gates - something that I've just accepted, I guess. One of the issues of having a greyhound I think, but luckily he doesn't really like new places or long walks so we are ok with it.

I wonder what breeds people are taking to the outdoors, to have one inflict that kind of damage. 

Seen article. Attack by breed, ranking, N Wales

Huskie 35 attacks - much more of these around now, nspired by Game of Thrones - my observations...very little recall and irresponsible owners (almost goes without saying, I mean, huskies are not suitable for the vast majority of people)

Alsatians 25

Terriers 20

Staffies 19

Collies 16

Most attacks are escapes from gardens etc. 

Could be that the post-covid boom of dog ownership causing tension? Combined with more people going into the outdoors.

There’s a few walks near me where i don't bother going now as half of the dogs aren’t under control. All of the ones i know are recent, first time dog owners who don't care that their dog is jumping up trying to lick my face or that their dog comes over purely to try and dominate my dog. There’s no recall, or even embarrassment, at all.

It’s obviously just speculation but if these dogs were near livestock then there’s no way the owners would have sufficient control over them.

(Very confused by the anonymization of the back of your dogs head .. but aside from that.)

Your photo is quite sad .. I agree.  It very much indeed looks like it's been done in purpose.  Sad times.

However ... you did omit that, literally, right next to the fenced off dog gate is a National Trust warning reminding dog owners to keep their dog on a lead a picture of a lamb covered in blood.  I think it might be a safe(ish) assumption to make that the farmer has lost some sheep to dogs recently and she/he has had enough. 

Can we really blame them for that? Is it every okay for a farmer to lose even a single ewe to a rogue dog?  I mean .. its literally their livelihood.  If we imagine a situation where dogs were permitted into a restaurant (or a sausage factory - better!) and the dogs kept eating the food off peoples plates ... would we think it was reasonable for the restauranteur to ban dogs?  

I don't think it's a wider pattern.  I can't think of any other dog gate I recall that have recently disappeared.   

Two things come to mind for me:

 - That minority of dog owners who spoil it for everyone else.  Clearly not all dogs pose a danger to sheep - but some do (its hard coded deep into their DNA) and not all of those owners of those dangerous dogs take the necessary steps to ensure their dog never ever make a mistake.  It only takes one ... but you can't undo the damage once its done.

 - I do think there is a matter of a cost to be considered .. especially in the current climate.  Its not free to maintain fence and wall.  There is additional cost to put dog gates in in the first place and additional cost to maintain them over the years.  Not massive - I agree.  An easy solution would be for dog owners, via a dog charity for example, to pay land owners to maintain dog gates.  We're slowly moving to a pay to play model for mountain car parks ... https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2023/06/pay-to-play_-_new_car_park_for_bein... ... why shouldn't dog owners contribute to the cost of maintain dog gates too given they are the only ones who use/benefit from them?

Sometimes you need to let go of the dog lead to let them throught the dog gate / or swap hands round that may allow an overly keen dog to slip its leash.

I don't know at all but when I was in Glenbrittle near the beach in June there was something absolutely huge (Baskerville size) and extremely fast ranging all corners of the large field closest to the beach gate and on to the beach and along the river bank - it was chasing some distressed geese that were trying to find somewhere to land - first on the exposed wet sand as it was not high tide and then on said field but wherever they tried the monster was on them.  It was trailing a long lead as it ranged over this very large area and I was amazed at the speed.  It made me understand how so much damage could have been inflicted in that wide area awful scene I passed above Ullswater.

No sign of any owner - maybe they'd been eaten?

[admission - in the 1970s my parents had to have a boxer destroyed on the insistence of a farmer where we lived in Weardale as he escaped from the garden and was seen in the company of another dog that was definitely seen worrying sheep and was destroyed too.  You could not have met a more timid dog when he met other dogs - but I still remember seeing him tossing my pet rabbit up in the air in the snow after he'd found a way to open the hutch.  We thawed the terrified rabbit  whose fur was full of ice blocks out in the oven and my mother administered a tiny amount of diluted brandy]

True, didn't comment specifically on that picture but you see them all over the place now so didn't seem noteworthy. Ironically the fields actually full of sheep and lambs in the area were very nicely accessible with a dog, with full size gates or kissing gates, and most of them had a similar sign on them...

But yes, don't really 'blame' them as such and can see from their point of view they might have valid reasons for wanting to discourage dogs.

That's an interesting idea re a charity paying to upkeep dog gates... would happily chuck a few quid at that if there was something, although slightly sceptical it would ever work once you factor in overheads, the vast number of landowners around the place etc... The 'pay to play' model does seem ever expanding and while I don't like it in general and can't help feeling that a lot of proceeds must end up going into pockets of wealthy landowners and company shareholders rather than protecting landscapes, it does seem like the only viable option in a lot of places where there is no legal requirement for a landowner to provide a certain service and they don't feel like doing it for free any more, and at least as a broad principle it's hard to argue against.

I would agree that it's never OK for a farmer to lose a single sheep to a dog attack. However I would also say it's never OK for a farmer to have to deal with abuse from an inconsiderate walker, litter from irresponsible wild campers etc, but we find a middle ground with those issues. I would also say it's never OK for landowners to allow overgrazing on their land but we all put up with that because they own it... I think it's hard to translate black and white statements into pragmatic and fair policies on the ground basically.

Interesting how far ahead huskies are, i think i remember watching a 'hounds of howgate' YouTube video where I think they witnessed a husky running off after some sheep, and that's the only personal / parasocial anecdote I know about dogs chasing sheep.

And yes read a couple of news stories where it sounds like dogs let out at night / garden escapes are big problems for farmers in some areas. Personally can't imagine letting my dog out unsupervised if the garden wasn't secure or just letting them wander off at night, but there you go...

A huskie has an instinct to roam and escape. Notorious / renowed for running miles and miles.