UKC

Left my daughters house last night and saw that she had parked very close behind me.  Looked closer and saw that she was actually touching my back bumper (inward grumble).  I got in my car, moved it forward a couple of inches and then heard a bump.  She'd not put the handbrake on properly (outward grumble).  

Went back in the house to tell her and after having a look, I moved my car forward again and this time hers stayed put.   She said the handbrake was on.  So we had a 'discussion' about how I must have been mistaken.  (loud inward grumble)

Talked about the merits of leaving the car in gear when you're parked up as a failsafe in case your handbrake ever fails. Even if you're on level ground, it's good to get into that habit so that it becomes ingrained.

She said they don't teach that on the test 'these days'.  I thought this was obvious, and that everyone did it.  It's not that difficult a concept, is it?  I've done this since day one.  Always leave it in gear, always test the clutch and move it into neutral before I start the engine.  My car has never rolled away.

Or am I just being the ar*ehole middle age old man dad?

Answers on a postcard

You mean leaving it in gear?

No, never do it. Did once have an embarrassing episode in Tesco carpark but if I forget a handbrake wouldn't I also forget to leave in gear. Also if you forget it's in gear and start it, the car jumps, potentially hitting something 

does parking in gear actually prevent a car from moving, or does it just restrict the speed at which it rolls?  I'm sure there'd have been enough slack in the geartrain to allow it to do what your daughter's car did once you'd moved yours too.

Not sure if I was taught it during driving lessons, but have always left the car in gear when parked.
I also bias the direction of the wheels so that if everything fails, the car will stop against the kerb, or roll into a wall, etc. as opposed to rolling down the entire length of the road.

Handbrake, in gear and if its an interesting looking hill wheel turned into kerb as well.

In terms of whether it is obvious or not. I am not sure it is unless you are mechanically minded. I expect most of us doing it got taught it.

Sorry, yes - parking up and leaving it in gear

My assumption was that putting on the handbrake was a failsafe for if the handbrake actually fails (rather than forgetting to put the handbrake on) - it's a cable that's constantly under tension(*) when on, so if it pops, then the weight of the engine will prevent the car moving (and as a third check, leave the wheels turned into the kerb so that if it rolls, the kerb will stop it)

If people are forgetting to put the handbrake on, then that's a slightly different problem with a slightly different solution...

(*) - my non-mechanical assumption...

It's only a very slight incline.  I actually did think leaving it in gear would be enough to stop it rolling (and now you've got me wondering...I'm going to test this next time I park on an incline )

I learnt in 1999 and it wasn’t taught then although I knew about it from a San Francisco visit. I’ve only ever seen the car left in gear when it’s been in the garage although even that’s not very common now.

I genuinely can't remember if I was taught it, or just picked it up from being told it from other drivers).  But it's a habit that's stuck

I drive a Landrover Defender, so it doesn't have a traditional handbrake it has a transmission brake. Because it will take up the slack out of the drivetrain when you apply it on a hill the car will roll back / fourth until the slack is taken up.  I am used to it now, but it always gives unaware passengers a alarmed look! 

Once the car gets warm it sometimes dosen't hold as well.  So I have got into a habit now of always leaving it in gear 

This is what I do. 

Exception is when I'm leaving vehicle somewhere for an extended period when I'll happily leave the mechanical handbrake off to prevent the pads sticking on the discs, obviously only somewhere flatish.....

Mind, you need quite a slope for gravity to overcome the resistance in an static engine.

I also used it to educate my kids when learning, leave it in gear, handbrake on or possibly off, wheels hard over, etc etc, just to get them used to observing, checking and establishing a safe routine for getting in, starting and pulling off. 

Mark

No, its not obvious, and no not everyone does it, very few do, although I'm sure its more common if you live on a steep hill. 

Its definitely a bit middle aged to get on a hobby horse about leaving the car in gear, but its even more middle aged to completely mistype the central point of your post, in the post!  

I'm waiting for a message that morning telling me that she forgot it was in gear and it jerked forward when she started it.   Cos that's my fault as well, obviously.

Well exactly.  I did warn you above!  She's probably collapsed the garage by now.

I'm not aware of a handbrake ever failing while on although I guess it must occasionally happen.

Some modern cars won't start if you don't have the clutch in, presumably because they expect people to leave it in gear!! 

I learnt in 1999 and I have always left it in gear. I can't remember if it was formally taught or ify parents taught me that, but have always done it. I have also had many vehicles with rubbish handbrakes, so I guess that reinforced the habit. Some handbrakes seize on too if left on in cold or for a long time

I have always done it since having a Vectra-C estate, which were known to have notoriously crap handbrakes.  The downside is that if someone shunts you transmission damage is a distinct possibility, whereas if you don't do it then it'll just be bodywork damage.

One thing I've noticed when being in the car with people from mainland European countries is that they often ONLY leave it in gear, they don't use the handbrake.  Certainly a couple of Belgians I used to work with never used it for parking.  The argument was that it might seize - which I did actually experience with an older car I left parked up for a while (hit the drums with a hammer a few times and it released) but is unlikely with discs unless you leave it for a *really* long time in a damp/salty environment.

Curiously my parents don't do it, and once spoke of almost having smacked my car into the wall when moving it (while parked at theirs) to get their car out because I do.  My current car won't start without the clutch down, though, it's a safety feature as a lot of kids and pets have been run over when starting cars without that feature when the driver has forgotten it's in gear.

When I learnt I lived on a steep hill and it was my instructor who taught me to always leave in gear (reverse if facing down, forward if facing up). I always do this, regardless of incline.

Turning wheels into the kerb is best practice on a hill as the kerb will (hopefully) stop your car if the handbrake fails.

As well as snapped cables I've seen handbrakes fail after long journeys when the brakes cool, or creep if you load a lot of heavy stuff into them. Not to mention if some idiot bumps you and it's not firmly applied.

Handbrakes weren't (aren't ?) always super-reliable. Thin braided wire cable. Not dissimilar to a dynamic rope. So a few heat/cold cycles, a bit of vibration and stretch, the lever can be up/on but the tension a few hours later can be less than when it was parked. 

Certainly true for my 2008 Golf. Other handbrake technologies are doubtless in use, but braided cable's simple, cheap and easy to maintain. 

Since my wife's car trundled down the tiny slope of our short drive and parked itself across the 50mph road we live on, we're pretty religious about parking in gear and/or turning the wheels. We count our blessings no-one was killed. 

Y

I always leave the car in gear. Passed in 2013 and I'm reasonably sure it was taught then (though common sense would have me do it regardless, I think).

What a heart warming thread 🥰 always leave mine in gear. Especially as I live on a hill. Don’t always turn the wheels in as it’d end up in the garden which would likely be more expensive than repairing the neighbours tow bar should it roll in to it! Would if there was a kerb though.

If your going to leave it in gear use a high gear, less chance of the engine being turned.

With an auto box I rarely use the handbrake

On the subject of handbrakes- whoever thought electric ones were a good idea?! True story - my brothers newish car had a brake failure when driving in the Cotswolds. (Apparently a common problem with a Mazda 626 - who knew?) Because it was automatic he couldn't change gear, and because the car was moving he couldn't engage the handbrake. He had to progressively scrape against a wall to stop - the car was a write-off.

The Highway Code says you should when parking on hills (252).

I think electric handbrakes are less reliable than cable. Discs cool down and contract on cooling, car starts to roll as theres no cable tension. A lot need to be pressed twice to fully engage, but very few people read the manual.

Our drive is steep and we always reverse in, leaving it in reverse to park.

If parking nose up hill I leave it in first gear.

Really? My instructor taught me that in 2011 (although I already knew as I grew up somewhere hilly).

I always leave in gear, helps for a quicker getaway and saves putting the handbrake on, unless I'm on a slope. Car won't start until clutch depressed so not a problem. 

Not saying its good practice, just what I've done for years.

You can still downshift an auto on most cars. 

I drive an automatic so it’s never an issue. Not sure if that helps?

Wrong way round. 1st or reverse only. Imagine driving in 1st gear. Your engine turns fast. Same principle.

You should use the handbrake. Depending on the design of the handbrake the mechanism can seize up if not used and it will fail an MOT. Cables also seize if not used often.

Also, by loading the Auto park pin every time you use it without the handbrake you're wearing it out more and increasing the chance of failure.

Either handbrake or auto park pin can fail so why not use both?

In US where they have about 100% automatics, handbrakes are never used, to the point many don't even know they exist.  Don't know what that says as their car safety record is generally rubbish.

Just be aware that whilst 1st will typically hold better than reverse, if it did spin the engine in 1st nose uphill, it would spin the engine backwards which could cause it to loose timing and knacker the engine.

Yep you are correct brain fart. 

Never been a problem in many years

I do on steep hills

Are you sure about that?

I would suggest that if this can happen you have got something else seriously wrong with your engine.

Happened to a mate of mine when climbing at Gloucester Wall, and parked at the docks..

Came back to find the car missing from its' parking spot. First thought - it's been nicked. Then realised it had rolled downhill once the brakes had cooled down, and thankfully had stopped against a kerb across the way. If it had kept going it would've been in the dock itself.

(He always leaves his car in gear now !!)

When parking on a steep hill, I will often leave the car in gear (and turn the steering so it has a chance of wedging itself against the kerb if the handbrake fails). Now I am wondering what the best gear to leave it in is. If facing downhill, I leave it in reverse, but your advice about spinning the engine backwards makes me question this and whether it would be better to leave it in 5th (having the most resistance to moving).

I can't remember being taught it, but I definitely leave my car in gear on even a slight slope. I've come back to it a couple of times when parked on a hill to find the gears locked tight, which shows the weight of the car is on them despite the hand brake being firmly engaged. 

I've also had a handbrake cable snap while engaging it, so its handy to know other ways of stopping a car rolling away if you are caught out. 

I was taught to always start a car with the clutch in. Besides the safety aspect, it also takes some of the stress off the starter motor as it hasn't got to spin half the gearbox as well as the engine. 

Living in Scotland we always leave any vehicle parked in gear and in winter with the handbrake off otherwise it freezes on .

I'm interested in your proof for that statement. 

Not putting the handbrake on, or barely putting it on is stupid however I do think that there is merit in in leaving the car in neutral, especially if someone else may drive the car next, because if that driver isn’t used to the car being left in gear then they may turn the engine on without the clutch being down while other passengers are getting into the car and this could result in serious injury. Sure, the driver should check that the car is in neutral and/or have the clutch down but people make mistakes so eliminating the possibility of that mistake resulting in injury seems sensible.

This is a pretty freak accident but it would have been avoided if the car had been left in neutral

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/28/womans-armed-severed-in-fre...

It would have also been avoided if she had got in the car to close the windows.

Alternatively if you ALWAYS park in gear then it becomes second nature to knock it into neutral before starting the engine and if (like me) you routinely share a car, again so long as both drivers are consistent no problem. When driving an unfamiliar vehicle i I'd expect extra care before starting the engine, so double checking everything.

Anyway, isn't it normal to depress the clutch when starting? In which case gear or not doesn't really make any difference. 

Cam shafts are pretty hard to turn and put a lot of tension on the cam belt/chain. This means one side is really tight and the other is free to flop around.

They put a tensioner on the floppy end to stop it jumping teeth.

Spin backwards and the tight side is now on the tensioner side. This means that the tensioner is now fully loaded leaving what should be the tight side all floppy with no tensioner.

I suspect there are other components that don't like it all that much. Oil pump springs to mind. I'm not saying it will be catastrophic but I would expect the oil pump to wear a bit more and pull a load of crap out of the filter which wouldn't be idea.

You'd also have no oil pressure which wouldn't help either. But unless you're lucky enough to roll down a very long hill and not hit anything I wouldn't worry about it.

Re the cam belt tension, during parts of the rotation of the cam, the cam is pulling on the drive belt/chain. The valve springs are pushing the cam around. 

I am currently learning to drive and I can assure you that you are taught to leave the car in neutral 

People will always look for shortcuts to do tasks and the more unusual a task is the more likely they are to make mistakes that look obvious with hindsight because it won't have become muscle memory to do it correctly. Could I swear that my partner would check that car was in neutral before turning it on, if for example they wanted to de-ice car so hadn't sat down in the driver's seat? I'd hope that they would but if they don't then I don't want it to cost them their arm. Maybe if you park on a hill then the balance of risks changes. Is it credible that the handbrake will fail? They do check this at your MOT. Any examples of injuries caused by handbrakes failing which leaving the car in gear would have prevented/lessened?

 If you always get in and then

1. Check handbrake is on

2. Check gear position is neutral

Before doing anything else, you will never have the car jump as you try and start, nor roll away if you press the clutch.

Maybe a seconds worth of checks. Never just assume the previous driver has done what you would have. 

If you've not done any checks and you kangaroo or roll the vehicle into someone or something else, it's your fault. Can't blame the last driver, you've been negligent.

Mark

Never leave it in gear, the only time I had a vehicle roll away was because I left it in gear. Parked my bike facing downhill and left it in gear to stop it rolling away. Came out a few hours later and pressed the starter to let it warm up while I put my helmet on...

Both my vehicles are automatic now, so no longer an option.

Oddly, though, that is in the "Parking at Night" subsection (rules 248 to 252).  Why it wouldn't apply during the day is a puzzle.

Here is the rule in full:

Rule 252

Parking on hills. If you park on a hill you should:

● park close to the kerb and apply the handbrake firmly

● select a forward gear and turn your steering wheel away from the kerb when facing uphill

● select reverse gear and turn your steering wheel towards the kerb when facing downhill

● use ‘park’ if your car has an automatic gearbox.

I note also that the DfT/DVSA advice is to select a forward gear when parked facing uphill, reverse when facing downhill.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/waiting-and-parking-238-to-252

It was more than 40 years ago but I'm absolutely certain that I was not taught to leave the car in gear when parked as a matter of course.  I do do so when parking on hills, if I'm driving a vehicle with a manual transmission (ours is an auto).

My missus is always forgetting to put the handbrake on when parking on our steepish drive which, as montyjon said, loads the transmission park pin unnecessarily.  This habit dates back to when the rear drum brakes on her old car (also an auto) did used to seize quite regularly if she left it parked with the handbrake on for a length of time, causing a bit of a lurch when moving off.  It never actually immobilised the car, which isn't all that surprising given how relatively easy it can be to drive away with the handbrake on in a moment of forgetfulness (at least modern cars tend to tell you about it if you do that).

I see no benefit in electronic handbrakes whatsoever.  It isn't even needed for hill start assist, my Kuga has a manual handbrake and has hill start assist which is done via the footbrake circuit.

See also having to go through menus on a stupid touchscreen to adjust the temperature or fan rather than turning a knob which I know by muscle memory and don't need to look away from the road.

Most won't actually downshift even if you select 1, 2 or 3 unless the speed is within a range that would be appropriate for the lower gear.

Bloody hell!

I'm going to pick this up with a facebook buddy who is a driving instructor.

Seems to be at odds with the highway code guidance (although that may only be for on a hill)

You still have a tight side and a loose side. Cranks can spin pretty fast in first gear rolling down a hill. If the valves were able to push the cam a noticeable amount compared to the speed of the crank then manufacturers would need tensioners on both sides.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't follow processes correctly, or looking to assign blame to anyone, just that if you make it so that you don't have to follow a process correctly it is safer than if you have to. There are quite a few cases where someone might turn a car on without intending to drive it where they may absent mindedly forget the correct process or they may not even have a driving licence:

Someone, maybe not the driver, waiting in the car who turns the engine on to listen to the radio

Someone, again maybe not the driver, turning the car on to close the windows as in the above example

Turning the car on to de-ice the car while leaning into the car

The driver is sitting in the passenger seat, for example at a services where the other driver has gone in, and reaches across to turn the on for the heating forgetting momentarily that they're pressing on the clutch

Someone who has recently passed their test goes to drive your car who will be more prone to mistakes and will have been taught to leave the car in neutral

For all of the above there is a hazard if you've left the car in gear but not if its in neutral. If it is credible that the handbrake cable on unattended car will snap** then maybe on balance it is safer to leave the car in gear but the fact that you're taught to leave it in neutral suggests that it isn't.

*In all of the above examples the handbrake should be on which will mitigate any potential damage but could still plausibly result in injury to someone near or getting in or out of the car

**metals don't tend to fail under a constant force, it is definitely credible that it will fail as you put the handbrake on but in that instance you are in the driving seat and can apply the brakes

You leave the car in gear opposed to the direction it will roll.  Parking facing uphill use 1st gear, parking facing down then put in reverse.  No exceptions.  On releasing the brake the car should rock back slightly against the gears and then stop.  It is the handbrake that fails and yes, I've heard it pop when out of the car on a hill with the engine running so can't use gear locking.  Terrifying experience and I'll never do it again.

I doubt a vehicle would get up to any significant speed rolling down a hill in gear. Many times I've stopped a car dead, while bump starting them.

The cam is pushed around during part of its rotation. A significant problem with VVT systems (which I have spent some time making and testing) is keeping the cam in its correct position during the push phase of the cam rotation. 

The first thing you did in EVERY driving lesson I had was check car is in neutral before turning on the engine.  Automatic, like checking the chamber is empty if handed a weapon.

Leaving a car in gear opposed to motion will stop a low speed shunt  into a third vehicle if your vehicle is hit.  Also, don't forget that handbrakes can (and HAVE sometimes in my experience) freeze in the on position in very cold weather if it has been wet before the freeze.  Best to use gears in cold weather and definitely if you have any concerns about the handbrake being anything other than perfect.

there are several reasons/situations why this (always leaving car in neutral) would be a very bad thing to be taught.  However, you should always check the gears/disengageclutch before starting the engine!

Always leave mine in gear when parking up. Yes it might lurch forward (and I've done it) if I forget but not by much and not as bad as rolling down hill into a car/house.

Over the years driving as a living and being with others driving as a living, I've seen vans roll into canals, vans roll into ditches and on one memorable occasion roll across a main road narrowly missing traffic and through the wall of an old peoples home.

Last year we spent some time trying to get someones car out of the ditch at Bosigran car park after their car had rolled into the ditch.

If I park on a slope, or somewhere I could get shunted, or with very hot brakes, I’ll leave it in gear and with the handbrake.

I always check any manual I drive is in neutral and use the clutch when starting, I like redundancy and it also lightens the load on the starter and the battery.

Starting in gear is less of an issue with modern manuals which tend to only let you start cranking if the clutch is down.

I know people who’ve had cars roll under the handbrake, and I knew someone who cranked their car in to their garage wall by starting in gear.  You’ve just got to be on it regardless.

Might be worth checking how far her handbrake has to be pulled to go on sufficiently to hold it on a decent hill and getting her to do that test.  

Abso-****-Lutely!

I had to temporarily park on a really steep hill on Saturday evening and walk in front of the car. It was steep enough so the handbrake really really pulled hard was just on the verge of holding (a few creaking noises and the occasional inch forwards). Had to stop the engine, put it in reverse (the best ration) and turn the wheels hard to one side. It does hold cars that would otherwise roll and it would mitigate the rolling forwards if the worst still happened 

But this sort of thing should've been drilled into people for less worrisome situations as belt and braces safety

In reply to artif:

You weren't on the hill I was on Saturday evening! But point taken, it'd be a lot slower by comparison to not being in gear

Parisians, as a general rule, on the flat, don't use handbrake or leave the car in gear. And that cos the accepted way of wriggling into or out of a tight parking spot, is to nudge the cars in front/behind to make enough space to manoeuvre.

If the parked cars don't roll, everyone gets banged up more than necessary.

Which of course explains just how Parisians car park sooo close together !

Why then, are we told we should bump-start a vehicle in second gear? Surely we want to turn the engine over as fast as possible to get it to start, thus 1st gear would be the logical gear to use?  Or is the engine braking effect in first too high and thus second gear is used to reduce that?

Not sure about that hill start feature on the Kuga...take your foot off the brake, it holds for 2 seconds and then rolls backwards! A better system is to only release the brakes when the clutch starts to bite. 

Yes, this.  Though bump starting a modern car with a flat battery isn't possible anyway, too much electronics that needs to be properly powered up before it'll run.

First time my partner drove our van a car came flying out of a side street, and we ploughed straight into the side of it, if we were going any faster it would have gone into us. Checked the car to make sure the driver was okay, for there to be no one in there.

Gravity had overcome their hand brake and done the rest.

Maybe 30 years ago the handbrake failed on my van and it managed to trundle down what looked like a flat road for about 400 yards before it came to rest on the back of another car. 

Costs me a few quid to fix both my van and the other car. 

Left things in gear ever since. 

At the time I thought someone was taking the piss and had moved my van so I parked it in the same spot sans and it started to roll at the speed of glacial drift but over 400 yards it picked up a bit of speed. 

TBH I'd rather not have it at all and pull off against, er, the manual handbrake.  But the point is that it's possible to do it without an electronic handbrake, even if this specific version could perhaps be better implemented.

In second gear and with the clutch pedal down (clutch plate not engaged with engine fly wheel), the clutch plate is rotating faster than it would if it was in first gear as it's the internals of the gearbox that determine the final drive rpm of the wheels for any given engine rpm.
When you engage the clutch as you would in a bump start, that rotation of the clutch plate will be transferred to the flywheel and therefore the engine will spin faster.

Have a DSG gearbox now but all my previous cars have been manual and I always left them in gear and turned wheels into kerb if parked on an incline. 

Agreed. I should have added a final sentence to my last post - an even better system is an old fashioned handbrake! 

If you're pushing a car in second gear the clutch plate will be spinning slower than in first gear. Think about it.

I've bump started bikes far too many times, and always use second gear because first spins the engine too fast and the engine braking locks up the wheel. Which is fun when you're sitting side-saddle 🙂

I think electronic handbrakes are used more because there are fewer moving parts and because it's less mechanical parts under the vehicle to package.

I think they're used because they are more complicated and therefore prone to failure. Ker-ching!

Always leave in gear. Handbrake on tight enough. Wiggle the stick before starting. Foot on the clutch to crank whether the computer tells you to or not. No need to make the starter spin the gearbox. 

Winds me up when people wrench the handbrake up to their armpit on the flat when there's no need. You're just going to banjax the cable and weld the pads on.

If parking for a long time, chock the wheels, handbrake off, leave in gear.

But what better to slow down than using a lovely dry stone wall in the Cotswolds...he could have been in a grotty city, and needing to use modern brick, or worst still, the central reservation of the motorway....

Handbrake in my last car (I'm of the bangernomics school of thought) didn't work for about 6 months, just left it in gear everyday and it was fine. I always park and leave in gear, I think that my Dad taught me, he was briefly a driving instructor.

Never trusted handbrakes, always park in gear. Recent conversation with my son revealed that he had been taught never to do this (he learned to drive in his 30’s, in London) and obviously thought this was strange and unnatural.

As someone noted above, most people were taught to depress the clutch to take the load off the starter motor.

Are there any manual cars built in the last 15 years or so that even allow you to start them without depressing the clutch pedal?

I typically use third.

You need to be on a pretty steep hill to bump start in 1st. Using first puts a lot of strain on the running gear if you dump the clutch.

If you ease the clutch in slowly you loose a lot of moment.

Care to share why.

Only reason I'm aware of hasn't been relevant for about half a century.

Parked my car in the station car park in St Ives. As I walked out towards the town another car started to roll out its space and across the car park.  Noone in it. Rather stupidly I ran in front of it and tried to stop it before it bashed into the row of cars on the other side of the car park.  It was heavier and moving more quickly than I expected.  Luckily for me someone else noticed what was happened and helped me bring it to a halt a few feet before impact. 

The driver who had just left the car to buy a ticket was surprised to see us holding their car still,  but very grateful!

because I have had a handbrake cable snap on a well maintained not old car and now I can't afford anything but older cars.  Handbrakes freeze in winter as well. 

Re polarity of gears.  I have never had a car roll forward when in reverse nor backward when in first even on very steep hills.  I have seen a car rolling down hill with a broken handbrake.

I meant why do you select those gears?

Are you suggesting it's harder to spin an engine backwards? Do you have a reason to believe that? I can't think of a reason why it would be (I've built engines, pulled heads, changed cam belts on a number of occasions, so I'm not clueless on this stuff).

Engines will build compression if spun in either direction. Once over compression it acts like a spring so all the losses are from the throttle body and friction. This is the same in either direction.

The only reason the advice you're repeating came about is because a long long time ago cars didn't have security systems. Fuel usually had mechanic pumps directly driven by the engine to a carb. The ignition could just be a simple switch. Easily left on. So there was a really good chance of your car starting and going on a little journey if it rolled down a hill.

We need our own version of Mythbusters here, I think

In a manual car I always press both clutch and brake when I turn the key.  On most automatics the starter won’t turn unless you press the brake anyway.

Another thread where I'd be very interested to see the age demographics. Seems that more recently people are not taught to leave the car in gear, whereas perhaps 40 years ago they were. I certainly wasn't (I'm 30). I would leave the car in gear on a steep hill but thats the only time.

Interesting one.

Generally, I only leave my car in gear if it's on a slope/hill where there's a good chance of it rolling if the hand brake fails. No point on the flat.

Whether in gear or not, my car won't start if the clutch isn't down, but I won't even turn the key until I've checked the car is in neutral. That's in ANY (manual) car - I learnt to drive in my Mum's car and she always leaves it in gear.

I was in a local car services once where a customer had come to pick up his car, got in, started the engine and launched it into the side of the dealers, causing some damage. Quite an argument going on - customer claiming mechanic shouldn't have left it in gear -v- dealer saying customer should have checked before starting. No idea who won.

There is a difference between braking systems. The hand brake operates the rear brakes and in the older cars your parents learnt to drive, these were drum brakes which had a tendency to release when they cooled down. Modern cars have disk brakes at the back, which don't really have this issue.

But it's still good practice to leave manual cars in gear on hills.

You parked your BIKE facing DOWNHILL !!

That's rather a silly thing to do in the first place. You should always park a bike facing uphill, after all, it would come off the sidestand if it moved forward inadvertently, which is possible with some heavy bikes dependent on the actual angle of the slope.

Are you sure about that?

As a brake drum cools and contracts wouldn't it 'shrink' onto the brake shoes, binding tighter?

As a disc cools the contraction would reduce the pressure on the brake pads as the disc gets 'thinner'.

Discs were adopted over drums purely because they dissipate heat better, reducing brake fade during heavy braking.

The rear wheels on my Kia have discs for the service brakes and a secondary drum for the handbrake. Not sure if the reasoning behind that is to do will drums being more effective for handbrake use or not.

Drum handbrakes are still pretty common I'd say for handbrakes.

Budget cars still often use drums on the back as their main brakes anyway.

And cars with discs on all four often use drums with the discs like these: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-861129fc5e51b3dd81e3dd2f99baedf1-lq

I think they are a pretty neat solution. They avoid a single point of failure and it's easy to incorporate auto adjustment. They should also be cool after a journey, provided you don't have binding brakes.

Being used increasingly once again and in some makes of BEVs as I understand due to corrosion problems of the rear discs due to insufficient use with one pedal braking. I read one manufacturer saying at one point the driver should hard brake regularly in their BEVs to reduce corrosion problems of rear discs!!

To the thread: always parked in gear and hand brake on, as normal, but as the way I was taught. Exceptions for winter/garage storing, etc. when hand brake might be left off as necessary.

A btw, I’ve had a past parked car end up further down a hill than where I had left it in gear and handbrake on. Gear locking front wheels, handbrake locking rear and it moved. It was winter though and my guess was what probably happened was the tyres had warmed up the surface of the snow creating a slippery surface over underlying layer. Once the car was moving it prob continued until a bare patch which brought it to a halt. Fortunately, didn’t hit anything, but certainly surprised me my return.

does the gearbox allow the engine to turn opposed to the direction of the gear selected?

I had a friend once changed inot reverse momentarily while going forwards.  The noise was terrible - fortunately he didn't fully engage before he reacted.

Manual car. I always park with gear engaged. Either in first or reverse depending upon whether car is pointer up, level or down hill. In this way 2 tonnes of car is not going anywhere in the case of a handbrake cable/linkage failure. IMHO this should be part of teaching.

I also tend to start the car with the clutch in and foot on the pedal brake. Having the clutch in means less in the transfer/gear box to spin up by the batter/starter motor. Foot on brake is a good test of the vacuum engine assist. You can feel the brake pedal depress a little further with no extra foot effort.

Are you sure that camshafts should be that hard to turn, I don't think that I have ever changed a cambelt or chain on an engine where there is enough resistance to significantly compress or move the tensioner.

 

Yes, gearbox can spin either way. 

When you are changing gear on the move the gears need to be spinning at the same speed (or close) to mesh. Anything remotely modern has what are called synchros that achieve this synchronising by allowing some slip, but grip enough to make the two gears teeth spin at the same speed so you that smooth change.

The synchro can't possibly try and mesh gears that are spinning in opposite directions. All that's going to do is rapidly wear the synchro down along with your gearbox teeth. 

Gear changes before synchros were a lot more involved and required you to match the gears manually.

Wise council. My handbrake froze after a night of -12c frost near Newtonmore. Had to get the garage out to release it, or else wait for the spring thaw!

To turn cams I use a ratchet. Takes a bit of force, and on 4 pots can feel a bit notchy as the cams hit the valve stems. Maybe you cold do it with two hand on the sprocket, but I haven't tried. I suspect a V8 would be easier to turn as the loads will be more balanced but I've surprisingly not had to do any major work on mine yet..

I've never manually cracked an engine backwards as the manuals typically tell you not to do this, but I wouldn't be surprised if slow turning would quite happily turn the cams.

But at running speeds would be a different story.

We had an absolute struggle trying to park one of our automatic cars with an electric handbrake in an awkard pub car park with a nasty little slope just where you didn't want it.

My wife actually gave up and I managed to get it in the last available space by turning off the auto-hold and using some careful left-footed braking!

It was one of those country pubs where it's all lanes around it with no other parking options.

So I consulted my car guru (dad aged 80 ex mechanic)

Never parks in gear.

I think there is a potential question about it in the theory test. Something along the lines of what gear should you leave your car in if it's parked on a hill. I did my test in 2005 and don't recall my instructor teaching it, but it's always been a habit.

It's unlikely your hand brake will fail but if it's part of driver training and the consequences of failure were catastrophic, I imagine you wouldn't have any friends in court. If it's your vehicle and you were the last person in it, it's probably on you. 

It happens frequently enough that most of us have a story or two of someone's car ending up in a bush. Perhaps less so as modern cars have become more reliable but it's a harmless habit to get into. Along with stepping on the clutch before starting the engine, which removes the possibility of driving over a pet or small child when you start the car, which sadly happens. 

What bike was it? No bike I've ever had would start when not in neutral. 

Absolutely! Bloody silly thing to do, and even back then I should have known better. Even worse, it was outside a pub so there were loads of people watching when I pressed the starter and it shot off down the hill on its own.

It was a long time ago now, so not 100% sure, but probably my GPZ600R. We didn't have starter lockout features back in the 80's 🙂. Later bikes I owned, especially Triumphs, you had to pull the clutch in to start even if it was in neutral. 

I had a Fazer 600 and I'm pretty sure that would start in gear. But not with the kick stand down. I think this bike was a 1998 model. 

There was certainly a kill switch on the side stand on my 1986 GPZ600R. I ended up disabling it as it kept shorting due to water ingress. Didn't stop you starting it, but killed the engine when you let the clutch out with it down.

Don't recall anything that stopped you starting it in gear with the sidestand up though.

As an aside, being able to start a car in gear at least gave you the option to get it off the road if the engine died by using the starter motor.

That side stand kill switch would have been disabled on my bike, just like all the others. They always failed causing the engine to cut out in the rain.

I remember being about 10 years old, and watching out for my dad coming home out of the bay window.

He drove his Vauxhall 101 up the modest uphill drive and parked, both of us smiling at seeing the other at the time. Dad got out and immediately the car started moving backward, and I tried gesticulating to him, but he just put a frown on his face, until he eventually turned round, just as the 101 went through a neighbour's privet hedge, and slightly down into their garden.

Luckily the car just had paintwork scratches, but it took a lot of getting back out of the garden.

Consequently, I have always put the car in gear as well as using the handbrake. 

All my recent vehicles require you to put the clutch in to start the engine, including my old BMW 5 Series from 2008, and my Triumph Sprint RS bike (W reg). I don't ride the bike anymore but always parked it facing uphill.

Weren't Saabs built so that you had to put them in reverse to be able to remove the key or am I remembering wrong? 

Thinking before their GM takeover....

Mark

Correct. My parents used to have 99 and I occasionally got to drive it. Had to be locked into reverse gear.

With the handbrake on, I always leave my car in gear when parked just in case of handbrake failure. Sometimes even an added boulder under a wheel especially after seeing the following.  

Some years ago, at the Bosigran car park, we saw a car that had gone over the low retaining wall and upended into the gully below. It would have needed a crane to lift it back.    

Ah, that old!  I suppose with some of them of that vintage you'd be grateful they would start at all....

I hate it when people leave my car/work vehicle in gear on flat ground! there is absolutley no need for it. hand breaks dont just fail, and even if they did, where is it going to go? on a number of occasions i have got into a work van and turned the engine on, only for it to crash itself into a wall!

this is definitely a generation thing from when cars were much less reliable... and im not even that young!

Quite. Hence my extensive experience of bump-starting 🙂

Yes, leave it in gear always. Normally leave the handbrake on, unless you are leaving it for an extended period without use, then it's better not to risk the brakes binding on.

Also depending on how spectacular the angle of terrain I choose to abandon it on, rocks behind all 4 wheels.

So, you're going on record as saying no only that you can't really drive a vehicle but that you made the same mistake multiple times without learning from it?

I don't know what you work is but if I was your boss I'd be sending you on the bus

I had a GPz900R with a knackered starter motor that it took me several months to get around to fixing - that kept me fit!

Its good default behaviour to get into. Means you are less likely to forget it when its important, it has also the bonus of training you to expect the vehicle to be in that state next time you get in.

Which nicely brings us onto:

You havent got into the habit of waggling the gear lever/sticking clutch down? I would have made a habit of it the first time I said hi to a wall let alone any subsequent occasions with a post it or something saying "watch out" until I didnt need it anymore.

🤣🤣🤣

An amusing thread.

I remember 2 things from when I 'officially' learnt to drive in the early 80s, 1: always check you're in neutral before firing up, and 2: (driving test question), you're on the motorway with nobody in front of you, which lane do you drive in? Cut up middle lane hoggers ever since. As for the total retards who drive along in the 3rd lane out of 4 on smart motorways at under 70 mph on a reasonably quiet traffic situation......AAARGH!

Have you ever questioned whether, maybe, possibly, you're the problem if you somehow keep doing it?

We both always park in gear and I asked my husband today if he was taught to do so and his reply was 'no I learnt the hard way'. 

Actually I remember the incident, not long after we'd started dating his car 'parked' itself against a tree on the far side of the road (Fortunately nobody or other vehicles were damaged, but the car was badly dented on the drivers door) down hill of my parents house. It is a steep road, so maybe that's why a few years previously my instructor did teach me to always park in gear and turn the wheel into the kerb.

Be aware you may not always be correct believing the ground is flat (assuming it's outside)?

A small slope can be enough to get things rolling if a handbrake cable snaps. You'd be surprised how often areas you think are flat aren't.

Well, after reading the thread I've no idea of the rights and wrongs on this, all I can say is I've been driving for 43 years and not once have I left my car in gear when parked, well not deliberately and I've never had an issue.  Have I just been lucky, or should I change the habit of a driving lifetime?  

I once had a driverless parked car on a hill veer across the road at me on my bike. Handbreaks do fail. Always best to leave it in gear (and with the hand brake on) when parking on a slope.

"No, never do it. Did once have an embarrassing episode in Tesco carpark but if I forget a handbrake wouldn't I also forget to leave in gear. Also if you forget it's in gear and start it, the car jumps, potentially hitting something "

My car won't even start unless the clutch is down, its always good practice to start a car with the clutch down. In any case if you start it with the handbrake on and in gear it won't lurch forward. If you get in the habit of leaving it in gear and the handbrake on (when parking on a slope although its not going to hurt on the flat either) its unlikely you'll forget both IMO.

Well I think we can put this one to bed now the highway code says this

"

Rule 252

Parking on hills. If you park on a hill you should:

park close to the kerb and apply the handbrake firmly

select a forward gear and turn your steering wheel away from the kerb when facing uphill

select reverse gear and turn your steering wheel towards the kerb when facing downhill

use ‘park’ if your car has an automatic gearbox."

Define 'hill' I guess, it probably should say slope in which the car can roll.

Highway code says when parking on a hill a car should be left in the appropriate gear (not neutral), so if a learner is being taught differently then thats the fault of the instructor!

I've known a few people's car roll down hill having left it only with the handbrake on. 

Always in gear for me with handbrake on and I always check it's in neutral when I start it with the clutch in to take the load off the engine. Just how I was taught back in the late 80's. 

If I leave it for any length of time on the flat I just leave it in gear with handbrake off to stop any risk of it ceasing on.