UKC

We were climbing at Horseshoe today and Colin pointed out the team to our left. The leader had gone up about six clips, taken a few falls then lowered off, stripping all the remaining quickdraws on the way down. The other guy top-roped up to the high bolt, pressed on then promptly fell off.

I put my best schoolyard voice on shouted the he should lower down and clip at least one more bolt below him ‘just in case’. He apologised, thanked me and did just that. One of our team chatted to them later, it was their first day climbing out doors.

I was a bit shocked at their apparent lack of understanding that they might be in danger, bolts don’t generally fail, and ropes don’t usually become unclipped - but it can happen.

Take care out there,

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

It only required one more rooky mistake of clipping in the wrong way round, and that fall could have easily been his last.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I was at Farleton Crag years ago and watched a trio of rookies top roping off a single ancient metal stake. I calmly pointed out to them what would happen if it failed and the desirability of backing it up with at least one of the numerous threads/nuts etc available. I was soloing at the time so they called me hypocritical since if I fell off I'd deck out (true). I suggested that there was more chance of the stake ripping and sending someone flying backwards down the crag than me falling off. After this I just thought good luck.

In reply to Lankyman:

That's a good example for this thread. You were aware of the danger (it would be hard not to be), while they weren't, it seems.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

What frightens me far more is when they leave all the quickdraw clipped (having not finished the route) and the next climber follows up as if they are seconding, unclipping as they go. 

Best case scenario is that they are on just one quickdraw to lower off. If they climb on, that leaves them with just one quickdraw which is now backclipped. Or worse still, they unclip as they have at all the previous draws, leaving them totally unprotected.

But yes you're right, best practice would get to leave at least the top two quickdraws clipped just incase...

In reply to Jenny C:

Without digressing from the original post I watched 2 incredibly strong young climbers a few weeks ago taking big falls onto the 3rd bolt of a route which if it failed would leave them in the ground.

They were just out of the climbing wall

The bolts were 35 years old. I pointed this out and they asked when bolt organisation would replace them...

Seems climbing in the Peak is now incredibly popular but the bolts are getting older and the re-eqqupiers with it. I think there will be an issue down the line...

In reply to Stoney Boy:

I was only discussing this with a friend of mine regarding ageing bolts and the probability of them not getting replaced in the future.

There is also the ongoing problem of climbers (both newbies and experienced) clipping directly into belay carabiners and rings rather than using their own quick draws, causing unnecessary wear and tear. When explaining the pros and cons of clipping directly into the belay to a group of newish climbers at Harpur Hill, they listened but didn’t think it was a problem as they said someone gets paid to replace them.............

In reply to Christheclimber:

I've seen this a few times, it's a pretty common gap in new sport climbers knowledge.

In reply to Christheclimber:

I guess you laughed at that point, and informed them this wasn't the case?

I was climbing on Sunday at a crag called Montestrutto at the mouth of the Aosta Valley. It's super well bolted and well looked after, so I presume it is someone's job to check and replace bolts. But on one seemingly popular line we still found a steel lower off that looked like this...

In reply to TobyA:

We certainly put them right on the personal cost that GG has incurred in bolting and subsequently re-equipping the routes at HH and other crags.

I’ve come across similar belay carabiners and some with more wear in Europe. 😬

In reply to Alex Riley:

And sadly it’s also a knowledge gap for quite a lot of experienced climbers!

In reply to Christheclimber:

I would imagine Gary's bank account would say otherwise, I know he got some donations towards the work but from what I understand a huge amount came out of his pocket (not to mention the time and effort he spent doing the work!).

In reply to Chris Craggs:

When people walk away from climbing walls, some don't seem to realise that they also walk away from the Health and Safety Executive, Working at Height Regulations, Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations , Risk Assessments etc

that all stay in the climbing wall.  

In reply to Stoney Boy:

On the face of it, a reasonable question. 

However perhaps they might care to consider what some people put into climbing (e.g. bolting/re-equipping) and what other people take from climbing (e.g. consuming routes).

And whether a better balance might be struck. 

Mick 

In reply to Jenny C:

Jeez - you've actually seen that?

In reply to spenser:exactly but my time for re equipping is almost over; once I have finished all my projected work at Harpur Hill with adding stainless steel rings and maillons on belays that people continue to top rope through and I do my new guide, my time for retirement from new routing is over; I think I have done my share but rarely get any donations anymore because people think UKC pay for it, which is not my experience sadly; go to sportsclimbs,co,uk 

In reply to Barrington:

Yep more than once at a climbing wall.

Fortunately, at least when I've seen it, I've stopped them before the climber got to the top quickdraw. Still had arguments from them about it not being unsafe, as the climber wasn't going to get any higher up the route than they did.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

A few years ago I saw exactly this at Wynd Cliff, except on trad gear! The leader, having failed to get past the crux of Questor (VS 4c) lowered off a single nut and removed all the other runners on the way down; then the other two climbers tried it on top rope. We were on a neighbouring route and it took a while for us to twig what they were doing. Needless to say, we had a word!

 

In reply to barry donovan:

Oh yea             And all the staffers that are there to say “ er that’s not a very good idea . . . How about doing this instead “ 

In reply to bpmclimb:

It was a trad accident at St Govans years back which made me certain to intervene when an accident looks possible/lightly/inevitable. The leader failed on Test Case, lowered off and stripped all but the top two runner (never understood why). The other guy had a go, flopped on the gear which ripped, and he decked from about 60'. Kinda spoils your (and their) day out,

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I see a lot of things like this and I think part of the problem is that people are starting to climb indoors and getting quite good but because indoor climbing is so sanitised they're not learning about risks and how to assess and manage them.

That said I did some pretty stupid things when I first started climbing but I was lucky and was able to learn from them.

In reply to Barrington:

Yep me too (at a wall).  Or rather I didn't, but I heard the loud scream of NO! from the belayer. It transpired that the climber was just about to unclip from the lower off having unclipped every clip on the way up. So it happens. 

And the lesson for me is don't think you're above doing anything similarly hazardous, all this stuff is easily done, especially when tired and distracted. (Speaking as someone who has stuck fingers in a  lawnmower and found myself 5m up a route without clipping into the shunt for example!).

In reply to Steve Woollard:

We've all been there. I look back and shudder at what I did. 

However there are several differences now. Pre-sport, everybody knew that climbing was potentially dangerous. So you tended to pay attention. Nowadays people don't think it's that dangerous. Often they don't pay attention. 

Another difference is that fixed gear allows passivity. You're not assessing your gear placements; you're thinking, "It's a bolt; it must be safe."

Another difference is that, with walls, people are much stronger and going straight onto much harder routes. No sense of 'serving your apprenticeship' as Ken Wilson was wont to put it. Generally poor rock reading skills. Often poor belaying skills. 

It's a tricky situation. But our mistakes were made in a different context to what's happening nowadays. 

Simplistically, as climbing's become safer, people are becoming more unsafe. Which is deeply worrying. 

Mick 

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Donation just made - thanks for all the hard work! It might be helpful if the BMC stepped in to have a central point for collecting bolt fund donations and then handing the money out to local funds. Maybe combined with a campaign to encourage people to donate after visiting venues, much like I try to donate to the local mountain rescue team when I've been climbing in an area that they cover/you would pay to climb indoors. Maybe its been done before and maybe the BMC would just add bureaucracy and keep the full amount of funds out of relevant hands though...

In reply to Mick Ward:

My point eloquently put 😀

In reply to Mick Ward:

Deeply worrying but perhaps inevitable to an extent with the way the psychology of risk operates in practice. As climbers we certainly need to learn/remember to refocus when dealing with new circumstances. Outdoor sports climbs are often not as labelled (especially in the Peak) they are more like bolted trad (when there is loose rock, or old bolts, or poorly bolted)

Hence, in my view, ignoring obvious danger is less to do with inexperienced indoor climbers moving outdoors (easy scapegoating) and more to do with complacency, as fear reduces with specific experience (which needs caution in translation to new scenarios). Whatever, it makes my indoor roped wall experiences much less enjoyable, as almost every time I visit a wall with lots of leading going on, bad practice is visible and occasionally terrible practice (and inexperience seems to be a small minority cause). On lead, buddy checks, full attention and focussed communication should be standard. I'd add, too often the indoor roped issues I see are with older climbers who should know better.

Actual accidents I witness are more common indoor bouldering but those proportionately link to a greater extent to inexperience (and the consequences are normally less life threatening).

I commend Chris for giving advice that might save a life. Too many shake their head and walk away where seriously dangerous behaviour is obvious... what kind of community spirit is that?

In reply to Robbo1:many thanks for your support but the BMC did have a ‘better bolts fund’ but that has long since gone and they don’t have that as a primary objective these days to be honest in my experience but tge  climbing world will have to accept that people do the work..and it’s bloody hard work in my own experience when having to purchase bolts, glue, drills and other goods; 

people should really understand what an effort it is and what it takes out of you, hence why I had a stroke curtailed with previous issues like my accident ; falling through the air when my rope was severed by a falling rock whilst cleaning at Ban Y Gor in the Wye valley with a fractured skull and major reconstruction surgery 

In reply to Robbo1:

The BMC does what it should do in my view, with campaigning (look up "better bolts campaign") information packs, advice, free bolts and occasional training facilitation. Plus looking after their owned bolted crag properly (Horseshoe).

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/articles/tag/bolt%20funds

As is common with the advertising of good BMC work (in the troubled period since 2017), I do think various articles on that tag could do with current updates.

IMHO coordination of bolt funds would just add cost and bureaucracy.

Frankly, I think it's shameful that more people climbing on bolts are not contributing to their upkeep through bolt funds. A useful list is here:

https://ukboltfund.org/

In reply to Offwidth:

The transition from indoor climbing to sport climbing outside naturally comes with an element of entitlement I think.

You go to a wall, you pay your money, and everything is taken care of and there for you. 

You take it to the next level and go outside to a sport crag, and everything is there for you. There is an assumption that the routes a set up for you and safe to go. There's a tendency to kick off if routes are dirty or loose or badly bolted. 

You don't have the same self-reliance which is built from trad climbing, which has a requirement for a huge investment in both time/experience and expensive equipment. 

And Gary, for every climber who has no idea who you are or what you have done, there are plenty who appreciate you. 

In reply to TobyA:

Eek.

Do you have a photo of the route, or have the name, or the grade and the sector. I’ll report that. 
 

I’ll ask for a photo of the replacement on the route
 

In reply to Mick Ward:

Indeed. Many will not feel they have the skills or kit to bolt. However.....

Being that many lower offs in the UK end with fixed kit (staples being a common example), not easily replaceable kit, is there any reason people should not be encouraged to carry and place the odd pair of quick links onto fixed lower offs? Or would they all just get stolen?

In reply to Steve Woollard: It's easy to blame indoors climbers, but I've seen plenty of pretty horrendous stuff in the past (I'd guess I'm older than you), and did plenty of stupid stuff myself.

'That said I did some pretty stupid things when I first started climbing but I was lucky and was able to learn from them.'

It's a pretty fine line between plucky climbers just starting out with a washing line and a couple of hexes , and two broken legs. I think we often mistake luck for skill-

I recall a recent thread on dodgy practices 'would you say sometihng', and most people said they wouldn't. Know they would!

In reply to PaulJepson: it is just in my DNA and I love doing, how ever much it costs me but the climbing world has changed so much with climbing walls and the likes but people should do some work on their competence levels before they venture outside with a number of issues in respect of where they climbing as well as safety levels and how they impact others; examples that come to mind are things like their own security and not top roping through glue in belays and how they damage them. I did ask Alan James to do an article on the effect it has on the equipment but nothing happened and I asked the same to the BMC  specifically to groups top roping through belays and tge damage it does; the wear that has happened at Horseshoe and Moss Rake is really alarming 

In reply to montyjohn:how is life with Monty

In reply to wbo2:

I wasn't blaming indoor climbers, far from it, it was a simple observation that climbing indoors doesn't expose people to the things that can happen outdoors and therefore they don't have the experience to assess the associated risks.

And it's not exclusively indoor climbers, I've seen people who have been climbing for decades using some very bad practices because they haven't upgraded their skill set and for the record I'm considerably older than you and therefore probably climbing longer.

I'm going to start a new post "what was the most stupid thing you did when you first started climbing"

In reply to Robbo1:

A long time ago (10+ years??) on here I suggested having a central portal to do exactly this. Nobody was bothered. Then, a couple of years later, Alan James resurrected it and put it into practice - so good on him! It was called something like boltfunds.org  Have just looked and can't find it. But the simple solution is to send money to Gary's fund. 

However in terms of continuous income streams, it seems to me that it would help to get away from one-off payments to standing orders. (I do both - a small standing order in my local area, one-off payments, if I can, if I'm visiting (e.g. Miguel in Gualalest).

But it's not just money. It's also skills/time. You really don't want to let enthusiastic re-equippers loose (well at least in my opinion). Instead you want to carefully train them. There's a lot more to it than drilling some holes! 

Gary's almost certainly given back more than anyone. It's unreasonable for us to expect him to carry on ad infinitum. Quite simply, he can't. And others are getting older. 

No quick fix solutions. Articles on here will certainly help. But we need to challenge 'climber consumerism'. In my experience people coming into the world of climbing are often both enthusiastic and well-intentioned. They just don't know about giving back. We need to show them why it matters and what they can reasonably do. 

Ultimately we can 'consume the crags' - or not. We can 'consume the planet' - or not. It's our choice. It's everybody's choice. 

Mick 

In reply to Steve Woollard:

I'm going to start a new post "what was the most stupid thing you did when you first started climbing"

Gosh Steve, I know I would have a hard time answering that - too many mistakes to choose from

In reply to aostaman:

Hi - replied to your email, but just to let anyone else know its at the top of Scala Jordan (5a).

Edit - on reflection it might have been the route to right, Cresta del leone (4c) - I did both of them! 

In reply to Gary Gibson: I have just emailed Alan to raise the issue again

In reply to Mark Haward:

Mine was to start doing more than 5,000 new routes and decided to add the first sport climb in 1983 with clarion call and invest my life money and DNA in it😂😂

In reply to Mick Ward:

 Many years ago the Lakes area / cumbria bolt fund proposed  a " Penny a Clip" suggested donation .

I wonder if this is a good guideline nowadays, has it stood up to inflation?

Anybody with the costings and user estimates done the maths?

In reply to Mick Ward:

I agree there’s a big awareness and education gap. And I really don’t want enthusiastic amateurs rebolting …I know (almost) everyone’s an amateur, you know what I mean. There’s a lot of knowledge out there and it’s probably right that you have to make some effort to find it. 

What shouldn’t be hard to find is information on good climbing practice, and we should swallow our shyness and speak up when we see ‘dodgy’ in action. Which brings us back to Chris’s point at the top. 

The lower offs thing is death by a thousand cuts, “it makes no difference to wear if me and Tim lower off directly through the rings, I’m only little.”

In a show of performative virtue, I’ve chucked *Gary a couple of quid, despite barely clipping a bolt this year. I’d love for the time he can hang up the Hilti and he can spend his spare cash on Stranglers and Port Vale tickets. Join in people!
 

*other bolt funds are available, support your local crag authorities
 

In reply to Rick Graham:

It's a really good idea because it's simple. But the problem with one off payments is that we need to think about them. And people lead such busy lives these days. 

Maybe if we think of it as the price of a cup of coffee a month - or two cups, or whatever is easily affordable? For instance, quite a while ago I set up a standing order for £5 per month to the Dorset Bolt Fund. Now although I'm quite impecunious, even for me this is a sum I don't need to think about it (though it really could do with going up with inflation). 

But that £5 a month is £60 a year and, after eight(?) years, is £480. 

I pay for my own bolting (i.e. don't take from the fund, only give). And every time I go to places like Guadalest, automatically put five or 10 euros in the box or to Miguel/his wife. 

That sort of 'cup of coffee' mindless regularity habit can get money in. Skilled help, harder. But I went out last Sunday with a Brazilian guy who was mad keen. And we worked really hard, not just at SRT but all the other stuff around bolting/re-equipping. He was totally up for it. Others will be too.

Mick 

In reply to steveriley:

Gary is a total star. He's given so much. He's given more than any of us can possibly imagine. 

Mick 

In reply to Mick Ward:

Don't want to lose the salient point of what this thread was about which is extremely relevant but there needs to be a plan for long term care and maintenance of existing equipment in the Peak.

It's a massive topic better articulated by others.

The loss of the Area meets which was a decent starting point is extremely disappointing.

In reply to PaulJepson:

I don't think those transitioning from indoors to outdoors are any more entitled than the next climber. I've certainly listened to too many experienced trad climbers who have driven expensive cars to distant locations and knocking back their nth pint whilst moaning about how much guidebooks or cams or the campsite or whatever costs.  Don't forget those bolt funds would be full if experienced climbers were generous enough. What those transitioning are, if anything, is too uneducated on the issues.

Do you have any significant evidence of this being a majority factor. In my experience those getting most annoyed with bolted lose rock seem to experienced climbers worrying about risks for the unwary. I'm one of them: putting bolts on loose rock is a bad idea.

I'd say this takes a year or so for most and the extra equipment for trad is not especially expensive for the basics compared to other sports.

Again I disagree. Gary certainly deserves massive praise: for guidebook work, cleaning routes, bolting routes and replacing worn fixed equipment and is very well known amongst experienced climbers and yet his (and other bolt funds which are generally for funding worn replacements) could still do with more money. That doesn't sound like anything like enough appreciation to me.

In reply to David Coley:

They get stolen. I know from personal experience of putting screwgates in staples (which were starting to wear) and going back a couple of weeks later and there was not a single one left! I have also had a similar experience with replacing tat with heavy slings and maillons at the top of trad routes to see it disappear within weeks.

It is dispiriting and I tend to not bother now, which I feel guilty about.

In reply to TobyA:

Got that. I'll copy you in 

In reply to johncook:

I'm not an expert in bolting so please don't shout at me if I'm wrong but wouldn't a chain and a ring be cheaper and longer lasting than a couple of screwgates?

In reply to Stoney Boy:

Funding for Peak Area meets haven't stopped. We have been told the funding for the November meeting has for (for now... pressure might still change minds) but within days several volunteers had agreed to cover costs for a physical (hybrid with online) meeting if the BMC can't.

The Peak still has a bolt fund as well as Gary's. Every so often there is local Peak area led  training for volunteers on bolt replacement.

In reply to Mick Ward:I am extremely flattered by your comments but it has been my DNA and I have enjoyed every minute of it but retirement from is due because I am worn out

In reply to Offwidth:

Having looked at the cost of replacing my rack recently along with stuff from other hobbies I am not sure it can be described as cheaper than other sports:

Open Water Swimming - Trunks £30-40 for something nice, goggles £15-40 (for prescription goggles), towel £15, cap £10, tow float £30, Aqua shoes £10

Hiking - Boots £100, waterproofs £150 for a reasonably basic set (although most people will have something anyway), map £10, compass £15, map case £15

Football - studs £50, ball £30, shorts and shirt £60?

Rugby - similar to football

Trad - Wires £70, helmet £45, quickdraws £70 for a set of 6, 2 slings £20, guidebook £25-40, 3 cams £140, screw gates and snapgates for cams £50, then add harness, belay plate, rope and rock Boots 

There are definitely more expensive sports (cycling, horse riding/ polo, archery/ shooting, rowing, kayaking), but trad is definitely not cheap to get into. You can argue that people can use hexes for a while, however most young people will quickly progress to a standard where hexes are rarely used. Climbing is reasonably unique among other sports that as you increase in standard in the same discipline you need more equipment to maintain a sensible level of safety, the only other sports like that are mountain biking and possibly kayaking.

In reply to Offwidth: it’s an interesting response but I have been vilified for years for my actions but times have changed but funding support doesn’t as people don’t donate fun’s to my paypal account very often on sportsclimbs.co.uk

In reply to TobyA:

Slightly off topic but ... at Kalymnos and other places you do see people lowering off and top roping off the fixed gear ... but it's awkward to 'tell them off.' I did wonder about getting a t-shirt made that said 'please use your own gear' or something, that might get the message across .. (or at least start a conversation.)

In reply to Gary Gibson:

I think that those of us who were already climbing when bolting came along (in the 80s) accepted that the people new routing would be the people who put the bolts in. No thought was given by the rest of us (at that time) about replacing them when worn out, but we also had no expectation that somebody else would do that for us (probably because we came from a "self-sufficient" trad background and were "around" at the time).

Today's new climber will arrive at a sport crag with everything in place and probably little knowledge of how the bolts got there - so it's not that surprising that they might consider the bolts to be a maintained fixture similarly to indoors.

Rather ironically, Gary is part of the "problem" here. Because he goes around altruistically replacing worn out fixed gear (👍), new climbers see and experience less worn gear than they otherwise would.

In reply to spenser:

I said:

We are talking in this thread about those transitioning from indoors. Yet all of that kit you list can be gotten more cheaply in sales (I just checked online), can be split across a group (as my kit was) or 'borrowed' using other's racks by climbing with kind people through these forums (etc). My second set of nuts in good nick (I always threw damaged ones away) was 100% cragswag... mostly barely stuck in Wildcat cracks.

In reply to Steve Woollard:

I was about to reply that a chain-linked ring and pair of hangers (for through bolts rather than glue-ins) in M12 stainless steel is surprisingly expensive (about £25), but first did a quick Google to check, and some unusually cheap prices on Trekkinn.com caught my eye ... the above item for £10.49, and also a single hanger with captive ring in M12 stainless at £4.99.

Does anyone know if there's a catch with Trekkinn - import duties payable, or something?

..... edit/update: just realised the catch! The main heading is for M12 (316L) stainless steel, but apparently the price is for the zinc-plated version = not suitable for outdoor use. That's a bit naughty, and could catch people out

In reply to nikoid:

It isn't just new outdoor climbers that make these sort of mistakes. I seconded a sport pitch recently after two of us had led it because it was easier to get the quickdraws out by re-climbing the pitch rather than when lowering off (the anchor was over to one side but was an easy traverse from the last runner). I took all the runner draws out and then when I arrived at the lower off continued in automatic mode to take off one of the anchor draws before I realised what I was doing. I had my back to the belayer so he couldn't see the mistake to alert me. I think it is possible that I could have taken the other draw off and then said take. Fortunately I came to my senses. I have been climbing for many decades.

In reply to Steve Woollard:

The staples were already in place. they were wearing quite quickly because of people top-roping directly through them instead of using their own quickdraws. I thought the screwgates may alleviate the problem somewhat, and if they did get worn they are easy to replace. I should have glued the gates shut in hindsight, but I don't normally carry superglue to the crag.

In reply to johncook:

If you crank the mallions down with a spanner then I doubt they'd get pinched. No one carrys a spanner in their rack apparently, as evidenced by the endless complaints about loose nuts and no one sorting them (again, assuming magic Gary in his santa suite will come and fix them all). 

In reply to Offwidth:

Well, that's a novel way of building someone's first rack. Just go soloing with a nutkey!

In reply to Michael Hood:I’m part of tge problem? How condescending of you about soo have committed my life too and what exactly do you do?

In reply to Gary Gibson:

I don't think there's a criticism of you in that post. A criticism of people who don't appreciate your efforts, or are even aware of your efforts, maybe - but not a criticism of you. At least that's the way I read it.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

I think you've misunderstood (or I've miss-communicated) my intent, I definitely wasn't having a go at you, which is why I said it was ironic, put "problem" in quote marks, and used a thumbs up after mentioning you replacing worn gear.

The "problem" was new (indoors to outdoors sport) climbers not realising that worn fixed gear might someday become their responsibility to fix - either by financial contribution or by actually learning how to install fixed gear and doing it themselves.

So the less worn fixed gear new climbers come across, the more likely they are to think in this way.

Because you do a lot of fixed gear replacement (which is a good thing), this makes it even less likely that new climbers will come across worn out gear, so they're even more likely to think in this way.

Hopefully that explains it better.

Sorry if the misunderstanding has caused you any upset.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Fair enough but no new climbers are ever going to ‘ take up the slack’ when somebody like me or the peak bolt fund do it for them and I doubt they will part with their money either 

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I first climbed outdoors on other's racks, I was pretty clear above that I first purchased a shared basic rack (with my partner and a pal) . Our first fully owned set of nuts was swag (well, a near full set plus spares, as swag doesnt come in guarenteed correct sizes). We then joined a student club and soon helped run it. A key facttor was ensuring basic racks were part of what we supplied for capable leaders who couldn't afford their own. We still help new outdoor climbers start trad climbing 35 years later....hundreds of them in total over the years.

The BMC had a really good campaign a while back, encouraging the club route for new climbers transitioning to outdoors, partly out of cost (shared gear and access to partners and huts). It actually boosted club membership for those clubs involved.

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree that sharing gear helps a lot, that does however tend to result in novices being at the whims of more experienced leaders. Uni clubs are by far and away the cheapest way to start climbing if you are already at uni.

If you are talking about the "Find your Adventure" thing I am not sure if it was that much of a success, my local club's membership secretary gave the impression that he had not had any interest generated by it, all of the growth has been based on word of mouth from members and people moving to the area.

In reply to spenser:

Other clubs said different. Overall BMC club numbers were in decline and they pulled back. It's annoying sucih initiatives (and other planned work)  got stuck in the recent troubles. 

My main point is that if everyone did a tenth of what you and I have done for others and a hundredth of what Gary had done for others, there would be no problems with bolt funds, or responsibile introduction to the outdoors. Blaming new outdoor climbers is unfair deflection from a huge proportion of climbers who do way too little.

In reply to Offwidth:

If it's been successful that's great, maybe the Oread had already recruited everyone who it might have swept up via Find your Adventure.

I will admit to rarely donating to bolt funds myself, but I also very rarely clip bolts so it probably evens out.

In reply to PaulJepson:

I don't know - I quite like it when people flag up loose nuts at my more local crags. I don't hold it against them as long as it's not done with too much of an air of entitlement, and it means I can make a mental note to tighten them when I'm next there.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Yes but you oftentimes see 4, 5, 6 consecutive logs all complaining about spinners. Maybe some of them should have made a mental note to tighten them. 

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Just by way of a slightly less bleak outlook ..... I've done some equipping of new routes and improving the gear on older ones in recent years (on nothing like the scale you have, but in a small way), and I've found that the climbers using those routes are generally appreciative of the effort and expense involved; they often ask in an interested way about the process, and ask about bolt funds. How many follow through to make actual donations I don't know, but at least the thought is there, and it does show that not all climbers are take take.

Also, my impression is that the message about not top roping on fixed gear is filtering through, albeit slowly. I usually accost climbers when I see it happening, and I've not had to do that at my local crags for a while now .... perhaps there's some regional variation in this respect?

In reply to PaulJepson:

I get your point - but as you say, a spanner isn't a normal part of a sport climbing rack these days, so even if they were inclined to make the effort to tighten nuts themselves, they aren't able to. It's still helpful to flag it up for others.

Same with posts along the lines of "could do with a good clean", which can be annoying depending on the tone, but the reality is that very few climbers carry secateurs (much less carry them on the route), in which case dealing with e.g. brambles is well-nigh impossible.

Generally, unless people are downright rude, I tend not to mind too much, and I'm lucky to live very close to some good climbing, so I'm happy to undertake a bit of regular crag maintenance of one sort or another 

In reply to bpmclimb:

I've seen it plenty at Cheddar but I think certain types of loweroffs are more prone to it. The crags around Bristol tend to be rings or in some cases mallion lower-offs and I think you're less likely to see people top-roping directly through these. I've (basically every time I'm there) had to tell people off about going through the staples at Portishead Quarry main slab though. 

In the Peak there are a lot of snapgates used for loweroffs and I think, while they are super convenient and probably safer in terms of cleaning, they are a bit more prone to people roping directly through. 

In reply to Offwidthyou can take a horse to water but can’t force them to drink it tge information might be there but people don’t know it is and most aren’t BMC members 

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Seen this quite a lot on trad routes. I have to walk away

In reply to Gary Gibson:

If you can excuse the mangled metaphor: I'd say the majority of experienced UK climbers who sports climb regularly outdoors 'are led to water and are drinking it'  and that is knowing full well that iit is provided at a cost, but then are effectively running off without putting anything in the donation box (and some even behave in a way that trashrs the drinking atea). A small responsible minority do donate and do follow good practice that reduces wear and tear.

And lo, a thread appears showing good things do happen... well done Toby. I'd support Kristian's comments on the bolt fund use in that thread. 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/horse-thief_and_moss_rake_lower...