UKC

Hello all. 

Having found the recent grade debate a bit boring, I thought it would be more fun to ask what grade classic routes would get if you separated the Adjectival grade from the Tech Grade.

Great Slab at Froggatt is probably still E3 5b

Californian Arete is probably E6/7 4c ?

Rhapsody becomes E3 7b??

I understand it works best when the grades are linked but do feel as a sane sober moral citizen that E grades being dragged up by 8b+ climbing is a bit boring for those of us who climb 6a+.

So, what would your best lead be graded if the Adjectival grade purely described a fall from the crux?

That's not "separating the adjectival grade from the technical grade", that's "making up a completely new meaning for the adjectival grade".

And if California Arete only merits E6/7 on your new scale, I dread to think what it would take to get higher!

Yes that was my point, a new meaning.

I.e. it purely regarding how likely are you to survive the fall from the crux.

Johnny Dawes talks a lot about engaging with the fall on a route, working out in detail what it would take to survive it "surfing parallel to the rock", rather than just trying to avoid it.

I've not climbed CA, but the high step crux doesn't look like guaranteed death so yeah E7?

So anyhow, what would be your new best grade luke?

Pretty jagged rocks below, it’d be brutal I reckon.

Fair enough, E9 it is!

So, you are reinventing the E grade so that the E stands for extermination. Why not have a simple scale up to E10

I don't think you can get to the highest grades just by lack of protection, I think you'd need a crux at terminal height, and terrible rock quality as well.

Bolted routes - all E1 unless badly bolted!

Cenotaph Corner E1 5c 

Lexicon E4 7a  Lots of potential to hurt yourself, but the big fall has been survived. 

California arete E7 4c - very bold but some gear and ok rock

Sunset Slab E7 4b  Protectionless but good rock, and not high enough to guarantee death. 

Brown's Eliminate E6 5b Gear might catch you off the crux, solo after. 

Breakaway E9 5b loose deathy shale

Hmm, I have just realised that users whose best lead was a completely safe E1 might not enjoy this debate.

Downvote away! 

Not sure this makes any sense. You can die falling from the crux of a Grade 1 scramble.  Does that make Crib Goch E10?

Martin

Sigh, gear. You have forgotten about gear existing. 

I don't think you've really thought this thing through.

Bearing in mind that the adjectival grade doesn't start at E1 but extends all the way down to, let's say, Moderate - meaning that Mod, rather than E1, would be the grade allotted to the safest routes - that would give us a range of something like 18 grades with which to quantify the protection/seriousness/danger element. Actual grading systems that include[d] such a figure - Yorkshire P1, P2, P3; Versante Sud R, S or R/S 1,2,3,4,5,6; YDS PG13, R, R/X, X plus whatever lower figures are used; even Drummond's 'protection' rating for Avon routes which I think went from 0 to 3 - all seemed to manage with between 3 and 6 divisions. How would we possibly cope with eighteen?

I actually think this idea has merit, but more modelled on the DWS system.

Each trad climb gets a french grade for how hard the climbing is, and an "S" grade from say 0 to 5 for how overall well protected it is.

Using "the chance of dying if you fall of the crux" is far too rigid though.  How would you separate a route with no gear except a single bomber runner before the cru at 40m, with a route where you could lace it the entire way? They would be very different to lead!

Both grades are at least separate, albeit both still subjective but I don't think you can avoid that.

Pretty certain death I reckon

Can confirm gear will catch you post crux with a decent belay

I think you're attributing too much significance to this 'debate'. The vast majority of people who have climbing a safe E1 - or any other grade for that matter - won't care two hoots about this thread..

Not sure why either of us are indulging Coolbert's nonsense, but California Arete surely outranks Sunset Slab by several grades under his weird system. I'm stupid enough to have done both routes several times and if you gave me the choice of one to fall from, it would have to be Sunset Slab, with its cleaner landing from vastly lower.

As far as gear and rock quality goes, maybe I've just been lazy about finding gear on California, I've heard there is some, but I've never spotted anything that felt worthwhile in a relevant position. So I don't think its gear compares particularly favourably with Sunset. And while the rock is "ok" as slate goes, it definitely isn't particularly good. Probably the closest I've ever come to death was when I got complacent about the rock quality on a repeat of it and nearly pulled off a handhold mid-move, which is something you definitely don't have to worry about on Sunset.

Or re-introduce the Yorkshire grit guide P grade system?