UKC

Hi,

Next Sunday/Monday I'm climbing Nevis through the CMD arete, I see on weather forecast it's snowing all day Wednesday, Friday and Saturday, I have crampons and am unsure if I need an ice axe too? That's my question if I will need an ice axe or now I ont use it much so don't want to spend if I don't need to for use once or twice. I have done a fair bit of scrambling this year doing crib goch (and all routes up Snowdon), tryfan, Nevis tourist route, scarfell pike, glyders loop and a few others. 

Given its next weekend I won't have time to do a winter corse. I only see my options as ice axe or no ice axe 

You'll need to check Travel Scotland to see what roads are open. I couldn't get to Oban yesterday.

If you don't know how to use it there's no point carrying one, you should also not cross any ground where a slip on snow could have harmful consequences due to sliding (or which is exposed to avalanche hazard, although I would be surprised if there were enough snow for this to be a concern) as this is the ground where you need one most.

It sounds like you are probably coming up from England and feeling a bit of pressure to do a specific objective without having the skills necessary to deal with the full range of conditions you may experience while completing said objective. This is a good way to wind up injuring yourself.

I would instead suggest including some flexibility in your plan to account for weather making your planned objective unsuitable for your level of experience, this may include looking for routes on lower mountains, or going to a different region on days where weather is unsuitable.

A winter skills course should at least cover:

Choosing length of ice axe

Fitting crampons to boots

Assessing Avalanche Hazard, planning around this

Avalanche rescue procedures

Foot positioning with crampons

Safe arresting of a slide with and without ice axe

Heel plunging

Low visibility navigation

Knowing when to use crampons and ice axe(s)

I am going to the Dalwhinnie area next weekend and will pop axe and crampons in my van but would be surprised if I use them.

Shaund442 is a bot, Spenser.

Anybody contemplating an ice axe and crampons - given the current spell of weather we've had in Scotland - would obviously be a bit stupid.

How am I a bot 🤦🏻‍♂️ Christ 

Coming up from North Wales actually. Not done a winter climb and still not given winter ascents are between months of November and May. The weather they have just had has made me query if this would be like a winter hike. I wouldn't say a lack of experience as there isn't really many scrambles that I could do that would prep me anymore. I'm going with 2 others as we have had this planned for over a month. Our plan is flexible at the point of being there (picking a different route if cmd appears to dangerous) your answer seems a little contradictory given you said you shouldnt hold one where you could slip on snow but then surely the idea of an ice axe is to stabilise in snow scrambling areas where you would need it. You say go to another area if unsuitable to climb but suggested your going to another area where you may need the same gear 🤷🏻‍♂️ sounds like your saying in short though you may need one but doubt it. In which cas, thanks 👍 just looking for some basic advice as to if it would be of use or not given the conditions and unusually snowy and rainy October.

Will do cheers bud

Unlikely you will need such equipment but keep an eye on Mountain Weather forecasts (Met Office and MWIS) as the weekend aproaches. If things change for the worse my advice would be do something else or hire a guide. CMD arete is pretty easy scrambling if there is no snow but it's a fairly big day.

My advice wasn't contradictory.

If you have one and know what you are doing with it you can use it to help you safely cross/ ascend open snow slopes, if you don't have one, or don't know what you are doing with one you have no business being on that kind of ground until you do.

The weather is forecast to drop below zero at night at valley level next weekend, I am going to be up for a whole week and I don't know what the weather will do. It costs me nothing to chuck that kit in my van so if there is unseasonal snow fall I can crack on later in the week. As Rob said above, the chance of me actually needing them is very low, particularly on the Munros around Dalwhinnie, I am just being cautious.

As for experience, it sounds like you could sensibly do the route if weather plays ball, I was referring to experience dealing with snowy conditions on steep ground. Looking at the current forecast for Fort William on yr.no I would expect that some of Saturday's rain will fall as a thin layer of wet snow and it will freeze overnight before any aspects in the sun melt. If you start off going up Carn Mor Dearg in those kind of conditions you would be unlikely to find anything hazardous which you had to cross. There is a steepish slope up to the summit of Ben Nevis from the CMD arete which could necessitate an ice axe if there is a build up of snow, however there won't be that much snow on Saturday and anything that does lie should have melted by early afternoon when you would arrive at that point on the route. I would expect anything on the arete would melt quickly too. If it's much wetter on Saturday, or if it is cold and cloudy on Sunday it might take longer for the snow to melt and it could prove an obstacle.

Ok.

To answer your question: you won't need an ice-axe.

Post back here after your trip to tell us how you got on.

Will do appreciate the response 👍

Ok good.

And I apologize for my initial unpleasant response. It was uncalled for.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.  The most important reason for carrying an axe is to brake in the event of a slide. This is why spenser was warning that you shouldn't be crossing snow slopes where you might slip without one (even in crampons  - in fact, especially in crampons, since unless you are well-practiced in walking in them it is very easy to trip yourself up).  It is is also useful on steeper ground for stability and to prevent a slip turning into a slide.  However on scrambling terrain an axe can sometimes be an encumbrance, although you might still want to have it in your hand where a slip might result in a long slide.

An axe is an essential piece of winter kit.  However an axe is pretty useless without the knowledge of how to use it to arrest a slide (in all possible permutations, including head first on your back).  If you intend going on the hills in winter then it is a good investment to go on a suitable course to learn this and other essential winter skills.

Neither axe nor crampons work well in soft fresh snow.  From the weather forecast it seems doubtful whether the snow conditions will require an axe, but you won't know for certain until you get up there.  You're probably OK to try it without one but you should judge the conditions for yourself and be ready to turn back if it seems unsafe. Knowing when to do so is one of the essential winter skills.

Here's a old git waffle/story.  When I was a kid, blah blah... Scotland, waffle blah etc

we always carried a walking ice axe if there was any chance of snow - and did that as our first precaution. If there was likely much ice we would take crampons or not go (because we were school kids, teachers played it safe). Ice axe braking while *not* wearing crampons does take a little practice but is much easier than doing the same wearing crampons because although you should raise your feet up you'll probably get away with doing it wrong as you don't have front points to flip you round, but practice it in a safe spot and get those feet up.

Personally I'd suggest taking a walking axe (long enough to easily use in cane position) and microspikes (not crampons) and an abundance of caution. Crampons may work for you, but as others said you need to know how to use it to ice axe brake wearing crampons as personally... I find lifting feet up was counter intuitive and needed learning

If you think you need crampons after having seen local conditions and chatted to people coming off the hills, it'd be a mountaineering trip and not a "scrambling walking" trip and sounds outside of your current experience.

Make sure you have a survival bag in your party  (ideally "blizzard bag") for walks in snowy conditions. Enjoy...

I even managed to avoid spinning yarns about wooden ice axe shafts and Dachstein mitts!

It's unlikely you will need to use an axe, but the real question is, how would you know if you did? On what basis are you going to make the decision whether to go up via the CMD arete or choose an alternative route? CMD arete in fresh unconsolidated snow would not be my choice of route. Slow going if the snow has accumulated and big risk of slipping on snow-covered rock.

I appreciated the old git/waffle story 🤣, thank you 👍 appreciate your time and opinion 

Full price ice axes start from 45 quid at Decathlon - that model works perfectly well for walking. Occasionally you see them even cheaper on sale - I think Rock and Run had some Grivel walking ones for less than the Decathlon one. 

If there is snow, you might as well take an axe. First snows of the winter are rarely consolidated, but an axe works as a good balance tool as you flounder through the snow covered scree. And then you have one if you want to winter walk in England, Wales or Scotland again.

If you're driving up past Sheffield you're welcome to borrow one.

Actually, the most important reason for carrying an axe is to use it to stabilise yourself and help avoid a slip or fall. Much better to not fall down a slope than to try to self arrest.

To the OP, I think there is some easy advice. If there is snow on the ground, or the chance of snow, pack your winter kit. If you don't know how to use it or how to assess winter conditions get some instruction beforehand. You'll have all winter to get out and use your new skills if you get learning.