UKC

I've been wondering this for a while. Not that it keeps me up at night (like thinking beta does...!) but I was definitely curious about it. Both grades a very important milestones for a climber, so I decided to answer this question once and for all using data, statistics and python.

The answer, of course, is not easy, but you can find the entire discussion and analysis in this video that I made. I hope you enjoy it

youtube.com/watch?v=AmiJSNTBIno&

In reply to Ale152:

Anecdotally I'd say 7A is much harder than 7a. I have one or two 7A ticks from my climbing career that were hard work and a pleasant surprise when they paid off. At the time I did them I'd have hoped to flash 7a.

Jk

In reply to Ale152:

I've not watched the video but the answer is that a 7a boulder is harder. 😀

In reply to Ale152:

My one 7A boulder to date took me literally a month of Sundays, whereas I did nearly all my 7a's in a day or two and have flashed one.

Ergo, 7A > 7a for me at least

In reply to AlanLittle:

I feel that is entirely up to what your main activity is at the time. When I was bouldering loads, I was getting most 7As within one session, but sport climbing 7a required a siege, because once my power endurance went that was the end of it, I needed to get everything down to a T. Last year I was doing more sport climbing than bouldering, and consequently sport climbing 7a became a lot easier.

Basically, is the crux of a 7A boulder harder than all individual moves on most 7as? Yes, but that doesn't help if you punt off the 6B problem at the top of a 7a route cause you're out of juice.

In reply to Ale152:

A couple of 6A boulder problems in a row is probably easier than in 7A. And the former is more like the crux of a 7a route. 

In reply to Ale152:

Font 7A is considerably harder than French 7a imo, and I'm 99% a boulderer with barely any endurance, so I probably fine 7a harder than most. I'd say that's true both indoors and outdoors.

In reply to Andrew Wells:

The real question is what's harder, font 7A or font 6B+, the answer of course being 6B+, which goes up to around 7B at times. 

In actual font the hardest grade below the 7s (physically, technically, emotionally and spiritually) is something like 5C

In reply to Ale152:

Unless you are really weird (sorry Alkis!) 7A is absolutely miles harder than 7a. No python required. 

Unless of course its a Chee dale 7a.

In reply to Ale152:

The answer is easy, 7A is far harder. 

In reply to Ale152:

Crikey. Up until I started that video I thought I enjoyed climbing.

In reply to Alkis:

If a 7a route has a 6B sequence at the top, then for it to be only 7a it has to have been pretty much a path up to that point

In reply to AlanLittle:

Agreed, but moreover, having a 6B sequence anywhere on a route would automatically make it harder than 7a, regardless of how easy the climbing before or after might be.

In reply to Will Hunt:

Not according to darth-grader, which make sense to me , 6B is very hard crux for a 7a but if it forms the meat of the climbing, particularly early on, it's not outrageous.  

And to agree with everyone else 7A is considerably harder tha 7a in any reasonable comparison.

In reply to ebdon:

I don’t think it has anything to do with being weird: Anything you don’t tend to do much is harder than something you do all the time, within reason.

I think using the word "harder" was a mistake. Yes, on a 7A boulder you need to *physically pull harder* to get the tick, but if the question is about "how long it takes to achieve that goal", then I don't think achieving your first 7A boulder is harder than achieving your first 7a route.

In reply to Ale152:

Anecdotally.... I disagree, I do about as much sport climbing as bouldering and it took me far far longer to climb 7A, even now I can get up most 7a's on the onsight, and if not 2 or 3 goes later. I can get up around 30% of the 7A's I try, most of which will take more then 1 session. Perhaps I am just very weak.

I would hypothesise (as the grades are beyond me) there is probably more of an argument to be had for 8a vs 8A.

In reply to ebdon:

8A is soooo much harder than 8a!

In reply to jezb1:

Fair do's I was sort of thinking of the "all the 8s" thing (8a, 8A, E8 and VIII) which seems to sort of make sense, which it wouldn't with 7 (allthough I suppose E7 is the only really big outlier)

In reply to ebdon:

I could run the script on 8a vs 8A and see what the results look like

In reply to TheGeneralist:

I got as far as the dog yawning and kind of lost the will to live.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Any specific feedback to make the video more engaging?

In reply to ebdon:

Yeah I’ve thought about a summer “in a day”challenge like that.

For me 7a and 7A would be easy enough, E7 would require some work.

The 8’s though… 8a, yeah a route I know well, E8 would require a massive game changing boldness and 8A, I just don’t have that in me!

In reply to ebdon:

Surely you don't mean making sense in terms of being about the same difficulty? Plenty of E3 climbers have done VIII. I think it was just a fun thing that Dave MacLeod came up with.

In reply to DaveHK:

Really? Andy Nisbet was the obvious example of the above, but are there really many others? Wouldn't have thought you'd find many who hadn't done E5.

In reply to jezb1:

Don't forget the eight Munros!

In reply to AlanLittle:

That’d finish me off 😂

In reply to DaveHK:

I mean in terms of the abartitary numbers representing a sort of vaguely comparable challenge it only really works with the 8s (I think this was a thing before Dave Mac did it) I.e if you have the skill set to climb 8a and or 8A you can probably do an E8 and VIII.  I dont mean in a day, more in a lifetime!

I'm a total punter but have got up a few VI's so VII doesn't seem too much of a stretch and don't regard 7a or 7A as a major challenge anymore but can absolutely no way envisage climbing E7, even if I headpointed it to utter death. 

It's all a bit academic though as I have 0 clue how hard anything grade 8 might be!

In reply to ebdon:

Nope!

I guess an obvious reference point to the question is how the grades look at the crossover - the long boulder problem sort of region where you could call it one or you could call it the other. The rule of thumb I’ve always been given for long boulders is usually that French grade = font grade + 2-3. There’s a bit of grey area in how you allow for the differences between a long boulder and a route, clipping etc, but it still doesn’t get to 1:1.

The other obvious reference point is what sort of grade boulder the (leaving the ground) crux of a really really cruxy route at a given French grade is. I’m sure there are quirky outliers, but in general it’s again several notches down from French=Font. 

In reply to AlanLittle:

I absolutely loved he did the Munros as well, made it look the hardest part!

In reply to Ale152:

I don't agree. I think it'd take longer for the average person to do 7A

In fact I'd say the average person doesn't ever do 7A unless they properly train and focus on it. 7A is actually flippin' hard!

In reply to ebdon:

Eight Munros is ideal me! Font 8A has been just out of reach eight years, give or take 😁

In reply to Ale152:

If someone offered me £50 to climb 7A or 7a I'd put all my effort into 7A. Probably a soft one move wonder like this Percy 97 Dyno (V6). A few hard moves close to the ground is way more attenable practically than a route where long rests are needed and fear plays a major factor.

In reply to Ale152:

A short bouldery route where all the difficulty is in a 7A problem off the ground will be about 7b+. For example:

A Bigger Tail (route) (7b+)

A Bigger Tail (f7A)

The answer is easy for most people: 7A is harder than 7a.  

In reply to Ale152:

Interesting thread. I was expecting general opinion to be the other way round. I eat 7A boulders for breakfast, but on the rare occasions I sport climb I've found 7a very challenging. Surely it largely comes down to what you do most of. Boulders are probably more morpho in a way that routes aren't. Often you can cheat your way up a 7A boulder with strength, flexibility, technique and tactics ( ) but with a 7A sport route you really need to be able to hold on!

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

No, a 7a sport route just requires a little bit of endurance and not being particularly weak. On the other hand a 7A boulder problem requires almost unimaginable strength and/or apparently magical technique (Actually I'm not sure I've ever tried one but 6B seems quite bad enough).

In reply to Robert Durran:

I dunno. In the weekend warrior bouldering world 7A probably lands on the same part of the distribution curve as E1 or 6b+. 

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Or be able to do a 6B-C boulder off the ground with a brief outro to get to the chains...

In reply to raussmf:

I'm always surprised the massive range when comparison between different climbing disciplines gets discussed.  I'm a total weekend warrior and was comfortably leading E2, and getting up the odd 7a before I did my first 7A. Infact I would say it's only through a serious effort with training I've got a bit more established at 7A, and even then if its got one hard pull i've got no chance, whereas if i cant do a 7a after a couple of goes or E3 onsight i'm a bit annoyed with myself. I guess it boils down to preferred discipline, personally I prefer trad, which makes me weak and spectacularly undynamic.

Now I think about it I think I've climbed as many E4s this year as 7As, dispite a week in Font and loads of winter bouldering!

In reply to ebdon:

I think it boils down to preferred discipline a bit, but I think it's just also that 7A is physically way harder than 7a, on average, unless you are an extreme outlier.

In reply to Alkis:

Is it even possible to have a sustained F7a sport route with a f6B technical crux finish?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Na. Some feel otherworldly but there are 7A’s about that you would have found do-able had you tried. I’d expect your knees wouldn’t thank you for trying now…

In reply to JLS:

Nando the Relentless is a climbing boffin! Who'da thunk it?

In reply to Ale152:

Delete it. And smash the hard drive it was on. I ate 1.54 weetabix today which is a deviation of. 0.35 on the average for someone my height. Controlling for milk temperature of course. I’ll make a video if you like.

In reply to mike barnard:

It has always surprised me how hard mixed a lot of people climb relative to their grade on rock. HVS/V, E1/VI etc. But I'm with you in the sense that VIII always seemed personally about as unobtainable as E6!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Heehee. Thanks for all the dislikes folks. 

Anyway, from the sound of it I should try a bit more sport climbing and get on some 7a routes. 

In reply to dunc56:

I can see someone is not really into statistics

In reply to ebdon:

It seems to get even worse if you go down the grades. I've climbed a few VIs, onsight 6a regularly, and have in the past done a few boulder problems that get 6A. But the idea of doing an E6 seems ridiculous. I seconded an E1 on Saturday and my elbow and shoulders are still protesting now.

The difference is perhaps even worse at "all the fives" and "all the fours". 

So maybe All the Eights is the magic point when to be strong enough for the boulder and sport possibly means you'll be good enough for the trad and winter...?

In reply to Ale152:

remember that you are an individual and not a population ..... 

In reply to Offwidth:

Probably not to be fair. My conclusion from this thread is that my climbing is so unbalanced I cannot really correlate things like that meaningfully. I picked 6B out of thin air because it's a grade I have onsighted and don't consider particularly hard. I've onsighted a number of 6Cs even, and I've yet to onsight a 7a, they always give me quite a battle that is not dissimilar in effort to the numerous 7As I've done, even though every move is physically and technically far easier.

In reply to TobyA:

"Magic" is maybe over-egging it - they're still massively mismatched in difficulty level, it's just that this is the point at which they are least mismatched!

In reply to ebdon:

Caff reckoned Dalriada (E7) was 7b+ which I presume from your comment about 7A/7a meant you'd probably r(h)edpoint it OK?

In reply to timparkin:

Alas not,  there's been a few examples on this thread of experienced climbers being a bit unbalanced in one area and this is mine...

Dispite finding 7a okish I have only ever climbed one 7b, probably through a combination of being rubbish at redpointing and utter shite endurance. This also means my top trad onsight isn't that far from my sports one, which I'm not sure is somthing to be proud of! 

On paper it looks like I should be able to climb much harder sport, allthough as the quote goes (Whillans?) It's no good doing it on paper, you've got to do it on rock.

In reply to TobyA:

I think all the 8s is an interesting one. I don't do trad or sport, I think that 8A is much harder than 8a, but I suspect E8 is harder than both in its own way

Or at least; my imagination is that there are a lot fewer people ever doing E8 than 8A, even if physically 8A is potentially harder

In reply to TobyA:

I think it's all about the 8a boulder problem. Being able to do that means that you are definitely strong enough to do all the others! Of course the head is another matter.

In reply to mike barnard:

I can think of 3 persons off the top of my head (without naming names).

In reply to Andrew Wells:

I suppose my thinking was if you could climb 8A and if you were sufficiently motivated (and its a big if) it wouldn't take a disproportionate amount of effort to climb E8. The same can't be said for 7A/E7.

However as others have said better than me upthread it's not like the grades are in anyway comparable, it's just the point the comparison isn't absolutely ridiculous.

In reply to ebdon:

I don't know remotely enough about trad, but do you think the opposite is true? That someone doing E8 could do an 8A if they really wanted to

In reply to Andrew Wells:

In a short timeframe, probably not? Reasonably well protected E8 maybe up to like french 8a+ or something (?), less well protected E8 obviously easier. 

I've not climbed with a rope more than a handful of times in the last year, but have bouldered maybe 30 times in the same period.

Been climbing around 35 years at a similar punters level.

I've done a few 7a routes and reckon I could have a fair crack at doing one at a day or two notice.

I've never done any boulders harder than 6B apart from my first 6C at a elephant last year after 27 years of trying. I know I will never boulder 7A, it's just way out of my league.

In reply to Andrew Wells:

TBH it's all a bit of of my league but Dan Varian seemed to be saying that some top level trad was pretty straightforward compared to bouldering when he was on the jamcrack podcast, I cant rember what grades he was comparing but he got quite into the numbers (allthough this perhaps was in direct response to a certain individuals routes!)

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Aye but that Black 22 is probably only worth 6A.  

In reply to Ale152:

I do think the really important question is whether 7a is easier than 7 Munros in a day or not.

Also, nobody seems to have said whether we are talking about onsight or not for the 7A and 7a (maybe the video does).

In reply to Robert Durran:

In sport and bouldering if you're doing it right your max grade is never onsight.

In reply to JLS:

Made me properly laugh...😆

Then look over my shoulder...

In reply to Robert Durran:

I feel like even within bouldering doing multiple easier moves is often easier to flash than one hard move at the same grade, I can't imagine onsighting 7a is closer to flashing 7A than doing both after working them are.

In reply to TobyA:

For real wads, what about the Nines trio? IX, E9, 9a (boulderers can maybe add in V9)

In reply to Ale152:

Back in the day, onsighted over 30 7as. Would think just a few 7As. (But am not a boulderer.) 

Mick 

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I was thinking font 7C, F7c, E7 and VII is actually not a bad combo.

In reply to ebdon:

'All the 8s' definitely does work a little better than any lower integers, though as an all-rounder bouldering 8A is the hardest by far (though if you make it V8 instead that's conversely too easy). It's something I'd kinda like to do - would have to get serious about bouldering for at least a year or two AND be willing to strap it on in winter again, but the diversity of the challenge is what makes it an interesting one.

I think to do a 24/7 a la Big Mac, it would make sense to do 7 E points rather than an E7, to make a more balanced challenge.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

In that case the bouldering grade is the one that's far too easy!

For those interested, I also did a comparison of 8a route vs 8A boulder, the plot is here.

I think it's still very hard to say which one is harder by simply looking at the time required to climb it, so my conclusion is the same as for the 7s

In reply to Ale152:

I think the mistake you have made, as a colleague, a well respected data scientist, put it to me recently during a discussion about a numerical model we had been collaborating on which didn't match real world observations is "you have treated the data as data"

In reply to Andy Moles:

Well, it's either that or 9A...

In reply to kwoods:

With the 7 Munros it would be an amazing 'in a day' challenge for someone not quite up to MacLeod's standard, though let's face it, still very, very, hard!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Which is why it's only 'the 8s' that are anywhere close to balanced.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Is there any climber in the world who has done or is capable of all the nines? 9A certainly narrows the field. Ondra maybe? I'm sure he could yard up a steep lX with a few days practice. And I love the thought of him flogging round the Munros (9 is significantly more effort than linking 8 to a winter route on Ben Nevis)

In reply to Robert Durran:

In a day, as per Macleod, is presumably a thing for future generations. If nothing else, there are so few 9A boulders around just yet that you'd never be able to find the other requirements within a day's reach even if they were trivial to actually do.

Over time rather than in a day, maybe Will Bosi would be the best contender. He's got the sport (many times over) and boulder (twice over!) ticks sorted already, so that puts him well ahead of the competition. If he applied his sport strength to trad like Steve McClure, it wouldn't be hard to imagine a suitable E9 going down fairly easily. Munros shouldn't be an issue, and he presumably benefits from being Scottish there. So it's just the IX. Has he ever dabbled in Scottish winter climbing? I've no idea.

In reply to ebdon:

iirc it was Paul Williams to Johnny Dawes while discussing what became the Indian Face

In reply to Andy Moles:

It all rather falls apart when the Tens arrive.

In reply to Ale152:

from reading the numerous replies I now feel very weak! I've climbed numerous boulders in the 7's but no sport route's in the 7's maybe I'm choosing the wrong ones or I am in fact just weak!

In reply to BenSends:

Surely rather you are just very unfit while being unreasonably strong!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ah I like the thought of this as it's something I can genuinely work on. Cheers

In reply to kwoods:

I wondered if 7A, 7c, E7 & VII may be more balanced? 

In reply to BenSends:

You could start by changing your second name to 'Clipschains'!

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

E10 + X in a day? Yeah, even if someone was physically capable of both, could anyone cope with that amount of brain frazzlement...

In reply to Luke90: i guess Will is not really further ahead than any of the other boulderers who have done 9A, if you can boulder 9A finding a 9a route you can send should be zero problem, same with e9, there have been loads of strong guys over the years who have gone over to trad with almost no experience and quickly climbed e9 or e10. I really dont know much about winter climbing but I would guess this would be the stopper for most , I think  getting up a IX grade route would put these guys way out of their comfort zone and would take some real training.

In reply to Ale152:

anyone who can boulder 7A but struggles on a 7a sport route must have terrible technique, there is just no way you can be that strong and still find 7a sport hard without climbing with truly awful technique. Fear of heights holding them back is the only realistic answer. 

In reply to climbercool:

I think  getting up a IX grade route would put these guys way out of their comfort zone and would take some real training.

Not to mention the Munros.....

In reply to climbercool:

Eh? Surely anybody who boulders 7A will easily have the technique for 7a.

Or zero endurance.

In reply to climbercool:

Maybe not training, but most likely a few harder (VII-IX) routes to get in the swing of things. It helps that the winter route has the ground-up ethic in its armoury.

In reply to Luke90:

I think it would be a big gestation - 9 months obviously!!

So he's got 8 months to finish it! Doable definitely!

In reply to climbercool:

Maybe not, but there are few enough of them anyway. Not sure how complete it is, but a climbing history website I found only lists 9a or higher sport ascents for about half the ten 9A boulderers. And Will has way more under his belt than any of the others from a quick scan through.

https://climbing-history.org/list/17/strongest-male-boulderers

Sure, probably not terribly difficult for any of them to transition and do a 9a route if they really wanted to. But regularly climbing routes that hard must also be an advantage in a hypothetical transition to Trad, where the others would be less familiar with route climbing tactics and stamina on top of the complexities of gear. Maybe some advantage, as well, to being British if searching for an E9.

All wildly hypothetical as none of them would even consider attempting the thing. But if it did suddenly become a sought after achievement for some magical reason, I reckon he'd be the strongest contender.

Certainly wouldn't be astonished to see him someday be the first to do 9A, 9a, E9.

In reply to Ale152:

As others have said, depends what you focus on but on the whole 7A will be harder than 7a for most people, particularly all rounders.

Put it another way, would a 7A boulderer find it easier to do 7a, or would a 7a sport climber find it easier to do 7A? Pretty sure the boulderer won’t have too much of an issue. 

In reply to Michael Gordon:

...and 10A/10a not existing

In reply to climbercool:

I've met quite a few climbers over the years with really unbalanced abilities and a lots (most?) have a bit of an imbalance. Not dissing any of them, I just find it really interesting as I've always been a bit of an all rounder, i.e. Jack of all trades master of none! Some of them were fairly new to the sport or had only focused on one discipline, others had some real barrier, fear, time or just inclination.

Not naming any names but I can think of someone who redpointed 8a but couldn't do 5 pull-ups, an E5 leader that struggled with font 6a boulder problems, a 7b boulderer/7c sport climber that struggled on HVSs and an HVS leader who regularly did VII.

Isn't climbing great? 😀

In reply to Robert Durran:

Re. 7A boulderer failing 7a route

Find a 6 bolter route...... 

7A boulder is way harder.  Last time I got anywhere near it was basically soft. 6A locally has moves harder than local 7a's..

In reply to wbo2:

I don't think Hamish Teddy's Excellent Adventure (7b+) has a 6A move on it...

In reply to wbo2:

Way too long, plenty of 2 or 3 bolters out there!

In reply to DaveHK:

Great summary. When I was starting I ticked 7C fairly quickly, while still a bit of a mess on VS. My pal Dave who I grew up climbing with, could headpoint E5 while at the same time unable to do font 6A. Proper opposite ends of the spectrum. These days the gap has closed a lot!

In reply to climbercool:

Dude i'm literally right here! ouch

In reply to DaveHK:

I suspect there will be many extremely competent female climbers who fall into that category.

In reply to Robert Durran:

This was me about 15 years ago. I could boulder 7B fairly quickly but 6bs felt desperate. And the less said about trad climbing the better

I've balanced this out somewhat now 😂

In reply to Ale152:

I've just read this thread and I think one of the issues with this discussion is that bouldering grades are actually broken in a lot of cases.

For example as a tall person 193cm/ 6ft4 I find a total lack of consistency in general with bouldering unless you happen to have the same dimensions as the person who graded or set the problem in the first place. Some 7A boulder problems are absolutely trivial for me because I can reach the holds super easily and require no power. Conversely there are a lot of sit starts at that same grade which feel impossible because I literally can't pull into the starting holds with my feet on the rock. There are also a lot of problems which feel eliminate where someone of average height specified you had to do the problem in a particular way using particular holds with other holds being out, the holds they have selected often make no sense for me given my frame. The same thing is true at all the other bouldering grades as well, some 6B+ boulder problems therefore feel harder to me than 7A+ problems.

With sport climbing however everything always works out fine regardless because I'm not so bunched up and I can use footholds which are the right distance away from me to keep me stable. Therefore each grade 7a, 7b, 7c feels consistent for me and most of the routes at said grade take me roughly the same amount of effort as one another to do.

In reply to BenSends:

sorry mate the good news is I think its much much easier to learn a bit of sport climbing techique/ get over fear of ropes/falling/ heights than it is to develop strength/technique needed to bouder 7A so youll have no probs.

In reply to Robert Durran:

yes, sorry i didnt make myself clear at all,  sure, 99% of people who boulder 7A will need very good technique in order to climb that grade.  What i meant is that their technique must fall apart when sport climbing, i guess it would be people who get scared over grip, and just get completely baffled by clipping and ropework.

I dont buy this at all, you cant have that sort of power without some endurance.  all the training data says that if you improve your boulder strength it will increase your stamina whereas vice versa is not true.  The level of the boulder problems on a 7a are just too low too truly push the stamina of a 7A boulderer, if they are climbing with ok technique. 

Of course a 7A boulderer wont onsight every 7a but redpointing one should not be a real challenge and many should be onsighted unless their sport climbing technique is really lacking. 

In reply to Ale152:

I would be interested to hear of some of the largest known grade discrepancies amongst top climbers.   e.g Are there some top 9a sport climbers who feel that they just dont have the strength/teqhnique  to boulder 7C  even with much practice and effort.

my guess is that of the people who have reallyh applied themselves to the seperate disciplines the discrepancies in grades aren't that big.