UKC

I'm doing a trip to Chamonix soon with some friends. We will probably climb some easy multi-pitch routes in the Aiguille rouges. I am a competent multi-pitch trad leader with plenty of experience in alpine terrain and I will be leading on routes which are well within my grade. However, my friends are less experienced and they will be only climbing as seconds.

In this particular situation, I much prefer to climb with two triple rated ropes. I like the added safety of the robustness of knowing each that seconder is technically climbing on a rope that is also rated for single use, and the thickness of the ropes gives me some peace of mind when you are 200m high above the void, looking at your single strand running over lots of rock edges.

However, this time I will only have 8.6mm double (half) ropes available to me.

Now, if I was climbing with two of my experience alpine climbing friends, they would probably be happy to second on a single strand of half rope each. That's fine, I trust that they understand and they have experience and they can make that decision for themselves.

But if I'm climbing with relatively inexperienced climbers instead, I'm not happy to force that decision on them.

What do you think? Am I being overly cautious? Do you think there are no particular problems with two seconders on a half rope each on wild alpine multi-pitch terrain? Or do you think I'm correct to exercise some prudence and try to find triple ropes instead? What is the general consensus amongst climbers, it's generally always OK to climb as a three on double (i.e. half) ropes?

In reply to shardiman:

Half ropes aren't going to snap and have people plummet to their death if you use it as a single,  they're just tested to slightly different standards and have slightly different properties (probably no more different than you get on different single-rated ropes). Don't see any issue.

In reply to shardiman:

It is perfectly fine to second on a single half rope, your proposed set up is exactly what nearly every team of three would be using.

In reply to shardiman:

From the Edelrid website:

“A further major advantage is that half ropes can also be used as a single strand to bring up a follower. This can be useful when climbing as a party of three and bringing up two followers.”

https://edelrid.com/gb-en/sport/ropes

In reply to shardiman:

A triple rated rope versus a half rope of similar thickness is likely to have a thinner sheath and might be less resilient against abrasion, rockfall etc.

8.6 is pretty beefy for half ropes these days, and isn't going to look visually any less reassuring for your followers than a ~9mm skinny single

In reply to AlanLittle:

Just pipped me to a similar comment.

I think the main danger is rope slashing after a pendule fall by a second.

Thanks for the responses... this is reassuring!

In reply to jezb1:

Thanks for that response... yeah I have seen things like this... but also in my google searches I get responses like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/aanog4/climbing_in_a_team_of_3_w...

"Here’s a, “Don’t do this you can die” pic of my own from the first winter ascent of the North face of Howse Peak. Lessons: Don’t belay two people up with each on a single strand of half or twin ropes, and don’t cross ropes with two seconds, as I’ve done in this picture. I’m seeing a lot of belaying two people up on half or twin ropes out in the wild lately, and bluntly it freaks me out. Here’s why:"

OR

https://trailandcrag.com/rock-climbing/single-rope-vs-double-ropes

"Rope manufacturers generally advise against belaying a follower on a single half rope. With dual-rated ropes, you can put each follower on his single rope"

So, my consensus from random google searches was that most people seem to think it's OK to do a team of 3 with half-ropes... but some articles say not to do it... hence the question!

In reply to shardiman:

This will gadd fellow sounds like a total punter id ignore him. Who takes a 10mm single (or even two) alpine climbing!? 

I somewhat agree that super skinny ropes should be used only when you're chances of falling are low + low number of abseils, or for hard objectives where every gram saved counts. And the rest of the time user a thicker rope mostly because thicker ropes wear slower so cheaper but also slightly for safety. 

8.6mm halves is thick though - i have a pair of 7.7mm ropes and a couple of singles which are 8.5. 

In reply to Jim blackford:

I've used the Decathlon pink 8.9mm single for sport climbing for a few years now, it's been one of the most durable ropes I've ever had.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Simond are a really underrated brand. Im impressed with almost everything ive got from decathlon 

In reply to shardiman:

How about a pair of the triple-rated Swift Protect ropes from Edelrid, 8.9mm and with Aramid fibres in the sheath? If the primary issue is abrasion/cutting during a pendulum fall by one of the seconds.

In reply to shardiman: While you're not going to break a half rope with even the fattest of seconds falling off they will bounce a bit, so nothing with too many ledges thanks.  Other than that , one thing that will kill ropes sharpish is running them over sharp, large crystalled edges so try and avoid that  as well, so avoid lower angled, Cham granite routes i.m.e.

But yes , have led and seconded in this way.

In reply to bpmclimb:

That would require it to be actually be possible to purchase the 'Nightfire' colour version at a sensible price. I have a 60m green one and would quite like to make a pair, but have never seen the other one in stock in the UK.

In reply to shardiman:

I made a table of elongation versus other rope specs and it didn't correlate with rope type (i.e. half rope) at all. Dynamic Elongation could be 32% for an Edelrid Skimmer half rope and 38% for a Beal Booster single rope.

Static elongation is definitely trends a bit more for half ropes but the difference between 9.7% and 11% (Beal Booster vs Cobra) so only 13% more static stretch for a typical comparison.

Plus elongation isn't measure with a 55kg weight for half ropes. They're all tested on 80kg. the 55kg only comes out for impact testing. 

Here's a google sheet public share of the data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EkF30XqWBey1cTzBgulC-M8bVsyFtpJ5O2o...

For a Beal Opera vs Beal Joker (triple vs half) the Opera has more stretch and they both have the same impact force for halves. They have the same sheath and so the Opera is (theoretically) less hard wearing despite it being a triple rated rope.

In reply to timparkin:

Are you saying 

Dynamic elongation test - half 55kg, single 80kg

Static elongation test - half 80kg, single 80kg

Thanks 

Great spreadsheet by the way, is it worth adding the Edelrid protect pro starling & swift - they have aramid woven into the sheath and I think they are a bit less stretchy than normal ropes

In reply to John Kelly:

The uiaa + EN BS test procedures and standards are easily found on their websites.

EN 892 for climbing ropes , I think.

In reply to Rick Graham:

I'm a very lazy bloke

In reply to John Kelly:

Hold phone, jab with fingers and thumb,  ideal for you then, John

In reply to Rick Graham:

😃

In reply to John Kelly:

I think the Dynamic Elongation is taken from the impact test so will be 55kg for half ropes but for both ropes I think (it's hard to tell)

The static elongation is just at 80kg though. 

I've added the swift protect.. horrible impact forces and lack of stretch... It's a trade off for abrasion resistance though

In reply to timparkin:

Static elongation is tested with an 80kg weight for all ropes (though twin is a double strand), dynamic elongation is tested using 55kg for half and 80kg for single and twin ropes (with a double strand).

They are both triple ropes?

From the data provided, the Joker appears to have a very slightly thicker sheath (lower percentage of a higher diameter) so I would imagine they would have similar abrasion resistance (assuming they have a similar sheath weave), if that's what you mean by hardwearing?

In reply to galpinos:

Joker and Opera have the same cross sectional area of sheath but with the Joker wider then it will actually have a thinner sheath. Then again it's impacting on a larger area because it's larger rope so it's probably a wash. p.s. I meant to save Opera vs Cobra but my point was that the numbers don't necessarily correlate with half ropes stretchy, triple ropes robust...