UKC

It would be really useful to add a UK Adjective grade field to foreign trad routes in addition to the relevant foreign grade.

As a good measure of "how hard is this to climb" getting this information available would really help route choice when on foreign trips. This could also help proselytise the usefulness of UK trad grades in general.

(Returning from getting my arse kicked by Southern Californian granite slabs and traditional trad at Tahquitz and Suicide Rock)

To help with the inverse I’d give the crux pitch of the Bat 5.10+!

This proposal would highlight the discrepancy with 5.9. Mind you, Mountain Project could probably do the same thing with HVS.

Sounds like a good idea

You could say learn to climb granite slabs. In the Mont Blanc range slabs are now almost totally ignored as people have forgotten how to climb them, and they can be run out, so they ignore them. And yet Piolas harder slab routes are some of the best climbs in the range and in a fantastic setting, but it takes time to learn the tricks and technique. Nothing should come easy. In Cham. if a slab is graded 7A, with an ABO grade, that means about English 6B and probably sustained with a UK equivalent of E5/6. That is something I have learnt from experience. I assume there must be an equivalent assessment for California. Personally and by comparison, for me the cracks are technically over graded compared to the UK. and readily protectable. If it helps  you could mentally add a grade, or reassess how local grading works for you, so that if you can’t do something, drop down a grade until you improve. As an aside, how many UK boulderers go to Bleau for the first time and totally get their egos kicked way down on their UK grades? It’s all about learning from personal experience making you a better and more complete climber.

Do you mean the Rockfax grade conversion table from YDS to UK trad? If so that's been obvious for years and, sadly no-one seems interested in fixing it. I've climbed loads on CA granite and everything is a full grade out in my main range of 5.5 to 5.10a.

To make things worse US granite slabs are graded a grade harsher again. As an example, typical 5.8 is 5a and 5.8 slab is 5b

The colour bands are even more wrong: Severe is the top green band and safe 5.5 is on average a tad  harder but 5.7 gets the top green band. HVS and 5.10b are top oranges!!??

I think he means an option for folk to vote on the UK trad grade for foreign routes?

This. Adding the opportunity to add and vote on the UK trad grade for foreign routes.

Why rely on grade comparison tables when we could just use the UK trad grade?

If we had a fairer Rockfax conversion table it wouldn't matter.  Besides which, I wouldn't want be a UK guidebook producer effectively guessing US trad grades to be voted on in a UK grade format. When I find sandbags the Mountain Project grade comments from regular users I trust from past agreement seem better and more logical than guidebook grades....same for sandbag grades in the UK and regulars commenting  in UKC logbooks.

Almost like things out of the UK aren't generally given or discussed as UK grades.

Adding the UK trad grade to Chamonix granite slabs could have two useful purposes:

Tell anyone who can understand the grade about how hard the routes are to really climb.

Increase the prestige of harder to protect trad routes.

Aside from all the techy skill there would appear no reason why not to add the best method of grading trad routes to all trad routes regardless of where they are in the world.

And yet it would be really useful for UK climbers when venturing abroad.

It's also a really popular topic of conversation between climbers from the UK as evidenced by many threads on this over the years.

Everyone wants to know how hard Freerider (5.12d) or the  Bachar-Yerian (5.11d) actually is.

Bachar Yarian is about E6 6a according to remus and Freerider about E6 6b according to Toby Dunn, (amongst other useful info) here:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/uk_grades_for_american_classics...

In my experience too many UK visitors don't get used to the rock well enough to be trusted.  Opinions that can arise (like Snake Dyke is really E1) are just often plain wrong (SD is somewhere on the  VS/HVS 5a border with some long MVS 3c unprotected pitches

So add a field for this on the foreign trad routes route log.

Why trawl past threads when this could be compiled in one easy to access resource for UK climbers?

You just need to shout the French grade louder.

I wouldn't object to that but it's a fair amount of work for routes which dont get so many votes (and votes will often be wrong from new visitors). The much cheaper and more important way for me would be to update the grade conversion tables and make safe YDS and their colour bands align properly with safe UK trad. 

I'm just asking for the opportunity for the UK Adjective grade be added as a field. I'm not suggesting that Rockfax employ someone to retrospectively fill it in for every foreign trad route logged!

A peer consensus can build up over time. Even if you can just see that one person voted Scenic Cruise (5.10d) E3 that would be more information than currently available.

(I know some people have concerns about a "aggregated peer review" method of deciding grades and prefer a "suitably experienced person" method  but that is a separate issue)

They're 5.12d and 5.11d. Unless you want to start giving French and YDS grades to UK routes too?

They have adjective grades. R and X. That’s all you need. 

As the Adjective grade just tells you how hard the route is to climb, "all things considered" it can be paired with anything. I'm just suggesting pairing it with the local foreign grade to give UK climbers extra information.

Pairing the E grade with french grades on UK trad routes has arrived and is currently happening. It's been informally happening between climbers for years as shown by resources such as "the grit list" and I think that some of the FRCC Lakes guides do this in print.

Do you think you got your 'arse kicked' because the grade comparison tables are gash or because the style of climbing is so different to what you are used to? I remember doing a slab route at Tuolumne after we had been there a while, 5.10a iirc, and the recently arrived Paul Williams (slate-head) did it behind us. We discussed the grade, I thought E1 5b and he thought E4 6b - make what you want of that,

Chris

I think I got a kicking on the slabs as I'm currently poor at granite slab. On the cracks however I'm ok and some of the routes felt hard for the grade.

The Y Crack (5.10b) at 5:10b was probably a safe as houses E3. That doesn't really fit with the tables.

Rather than moaning about the tables, as I know it's an inexact science, I'm just suggesting that as this is predominantly a UK based user group, we could just slowly start adding Adjective grades for our fellow climbers to observe, criticise, and mock.

Why use a conversation table when you could just collect opinions of the actual route grade? It could be shown as a "opinion grade".

When I lived in Finland myself and some British mates added loads of crags to the logbooks and went with UK grades for trad and french for sport. So you just need to do the hard graft of adding crags and routes to the database then you can use whatever grades you want! ;⁠-⁠) 

There is now the option of Nordic grades in the grades menu but that's a bit silly as the Swedes Finns and Norwegian all use grade that look the same but aren't. Actually the Norwegians don't seem to be able to apply their grades consistently between adjacent areas, or even between nearby crags! 

I think the cheapest and simplest option is to forget about UK grades when climbing in foreign lands, and just get used their grading systems. I would not want to see UK trad grades applied to foreign climbs. The US system with R and X has always worked for me, even if it is a bit "spicy" by UK standards.

Snake Dike, all the 4s. E4 4a to take it to the ridiculous.

That's what I always did, and it always worked well for me (fewer mad sandbags than in the UK) but others here say it doesn't work so well above my normal onsight lead range (upto 5.10a). We top-roped things into the mid 11s and for Lynn into the high 11s on pure friction slabs. All seemed hard compared to UK tech on the Rockfax tables, especially SW US granite slabs...worst of all at JT. X rated trad routes above 5.9 seem pretty rare, very much unlike UK trad.

This obviously does not work for climbs already added and it does not provide the opportunity to use the adjective grade plus the local grade E4 5.11b for example.

Filling the database up with duplicate climbs does not seem sensible.

Having lived in California for several years in the past as well as spending a number of climbing trips out there I would say that use of the YDS (even with the infrequently used PG/R/X add on) is inferior to the adjective+ method.

This is especially noticeable on a two week trip!

We don't insist on using UK trad grades on UK sport routes and are quite happy applying the "best" international grading method for these. This seems analogous.

Totally with you on this. It is frustrating when, with limited time abroad, having to take chances with grading systems which don't really tell you how hard a route is. 

Yes, when 5.10a can be anything from HVS to E3, conversion tables simply don't work and are only a bit moderated by the R,X thing. The option on here for people to vote with their opinion on a UK grade can only be a good thing.

I don't think it matters. Voted UK grade opinions would end up reflecting typical UK skill sets and therefore be useful for UK climbers.

After all, I am sure we are all used to asking British climbers who have done a foreign route what UK grade it would get. This would just formalise this process and spread the i formation.

In fact I would see voting on UK grades for foreign routes far more useful than the voting on UK grades for UK routes which already have a UK grade in the guidebook.

And seeing an runout granite slab with votes between E1 and E4 is really quite informative!

Prime British exceptionalism and imperial nostalgia.

Give the benighted peoples of the world some proper grades

Let's start by giving British people abroad proper grades.

If locals have their eyes opened then that is just competition in the free market of ideas. 

Indeed. However, runout slab that is E4 according to an experienced UK climber familiar with the style of climbing and regarded as E1 from the Rockfax grade table could just be a more polished JT 5.9 PG14, not uncommon at Indian Cove. The only E1 votes on such routes could be from those simply unable to grade sensibly. Chris talked above about a Tuolumne 5.10a slab and denegrated Paul's experience on such routes, but Paul was in disagreement on the equivalent technical grade, not the boldness and if I knew the route my view might even be closer to Paul's. I've certainly never climbed any CA 5.10a granite trad slab pitch that was easier than UK tech 5c. Getting better at such slabs just means we are improving our grades.

Distorted by inexperience so suffering some inevitable grade creep. Imagine if we only allowed grade votes on UK crags from occasional visitors. Even as it is the low grade Stanage VS classics get nearly half a grade creep on UKC voting averages due to inexperienced voters.

I appreciate your honesty but I find YDS with film ratings means I climb consistently harder on US holidays than on holidays in the UK, and by at least two grades on average.... as I know pretty well the route won't risk killing me though a hidden-in-a-sandbag-grade lack of protection.

Who would apply such a subjective assessment with generally so little experience of this type of climbing? After an ascent I used to write in my guide the UK equivalent just  out of interest and not necessarily accurate or meant for the wider climbing community. For this particular type of climbing I believe there isn’t enough experience for an accurate consensus. I just invested time and effort and learnt to climb them. The French alpine E grade or ABO is meant to give an indication of the seriousness and with experience anyone can make a more or less accurate judgement and applying UK grades around the world seems a little arrogant to me and anyway we shouldn’t need to be spoon fed info. Where’s the spirit of adventure? What is totally anomalous and where the French system falls down is grading a half day fun in the sun slab above Envers and then down for a beer, with a higher E grade than say the Walker or American direct on the Dru. Absurd. Big serious alpine routes is where a different grading system would be of use.

But that is not comparing like with like. We are talking about UK grades for UK climbers on a UK website. If US climbers wanted to add YDS grades to British routes on Mountain Project or whatever, then that would be the equivalent and good luck to them.

High quality information and research does not make things less adventurous. It facilitates the targeting of one's time on the most adventurous thing achievable. Without good information one has less adventure as time is wasted trying to find cliffs, and then climbing conservatively with grades in hand. Competency does not diminish adventure. 

The idea that British trad is less adventurous than foreign equivalents because we have a two part grading system is absurd.

The idea that the USA needs protecting from the use of UK grades on its shores is patronising and restrictive. Let grade systems compete. There is nothing arrogant about effective communication or letting users of UK Adjective grades compare notes.

It isn't though, because it doesn't give you an idea of seriousness. Is an E1 5a E1 because it is runout, or because every single move is 5a? The YDS is also imperfect because it doesn't give an idea of tech grade.  The perfect grading system would give an adjectival grade, tech grade for the crux, and seriousness grade.

I might be unusual in finding the adjective grade works well on its own for telling me how hard the route will be to walk up to and climb.

That is it's real strength.

The extra information gained from the second bit is just a useful extra and can be obtained from the existing foreign grade.

It's an E2 with 5.10b climbing.

It's an E2 with french 6a climbing.

Fundamentally it's an E2 and that tells me whether I can climb it.

Part of the issue here is that granite friction slab padding - splitter cracks too for that matter - can't really be trained indoors, and can't really be practiced all that much in the UK either. So like anything they're going to feel disproportionately hard for people unfamiliar with the style.

So do you grade for people who are comfortable with that style of climbing, as the locals presumably do? Or do you grade for some hypothetical average Brit who isn't?

Just as an example, I'm planning to go to the Pfalz this summer and I have my eye on the Jubiläumsriss (VII-) as a Güllich classic. Normally, based on a lot of experience with UIAA grades, I'd expect a trad VII- to feel somewhere around E1 5c. But I'm seeing comments in the logbook here that it's more like E3 6a. Oh.

I'm just suggesting that the collection of opinions is formalized so you don't need to trawl historic forum posts or read all the logbook entries.

The idea would be to get a consensus for British climbers. Of course that would reflect a typical British skillset, which probably means not so strong on slabs and splitter cracks. Those who are good at these things can adjust their expectations accordingly, just as we all do for styles of climbing in the UK which suit us or not individually.

I disagree with that as it stands but I guess you meant to say 'highly sustained' somewhere. The moves are still the moves though... do you disagree with me that sustained 5.10a padding moves in Yosemite would be 5c on say Froggatt or the Etive slabs (and lets not forget YDS is supposed to include to some degree a cumulative effect factor)? Getting good at things shouldn't change the grade equivalence it just means the climber is getting more skilled (climbing technically harder) with practice. Unfortunately, due to seperate trad histories, our systems don't quite align across styles adding to a Rockfax grade conversion table that has clear faults. Hence, I have some sympathy with Brown's points.

If we look at UKC grade arguments on famous UK climbs we can see there are wide variations in what should be a well benchmarked and understood system. Bad grading and dumb opinions just damage the trad ethic.

Yet we in the UK have variations in concensus across the main areas and even on individual routes in different guidebooks.

As we go up 4 notches from central E1 to central  E5 we pass 7 notches in YDS.

In the UK trad technical grades are so wide they seriously degrade the UK twin trad grade utilitty above 6a.

I am yet to be convinced your dislike of YDS isn't arising from the finer gradations in YDS and different trad cultures (and  regional differences) that gave us the misalignment with UK grades for some styles (esp for padding slabs). I agree having UK grades for US routes are useful (and fun) but a better table  (with a note on padding slabs) means the problem is much reduced for safe US routes. I really don't have any problems with YDS on safe routes and only climb R rated pitches (or the occasional X) on YDS grades I would nearly always be OK to solo or reverse.

It won’t be formalised in any meaningful way, it’ll just be full of inflated grades by people who’ve been on holiday and had their pants pulled down by a Yosemite offwidth or a bold Meteora slab. Whacking a big E grade on your ascent is less humbling than fessing up to 6a dnf.

Yes, but basically the UK grade seems to work very well for most climbers at the grades they climb.

The fact is that British climbers abroad are, in my experience very often eager to hear opinions on the UK grade of routes. All this would be doing would be satisfying that demand. Whether this demand is because of unfamiliarity with the YDS and other grading systems or because of their inherent inadequacy compared with the UK system is really a separate argument.

I wasn't being particularly serious but I did look up Finland best cliff and notice no one has changed the UK grades - the new Finnish guidebooks seem to have given up on Finnish grades and are just giving French grades to everything if I remember right. But a slightly more useful suggestion is could you just add a UK grade in brackets at the end of the route description? 

Yes, you wouldn't be able to see it on the crag page with just route names, grade and stars but click on the route and it would be there. Obviously the crag moderator would have to approve the edits, but as long as people are suggesting sensible grades I don't see why anyone would object. If you have the time become a moderator for a crag and add the grades you know yourself via the mod's page. I know when I added loads of climbs and crags to places abroad I've climbed if I was using UK or French grades I would record any local grade in the description.

whilst UKC inherently has UK in the title it is worth noting that it is a .com NOT a .co.uk

and it does have a place in the wider global climbing family.

I believe you can set preferences on your logbook to a certain grading system and If doing that and collecting others subjective experiences helps you enjoy our collective pastime then great.

I still find British grades tricky to make sense of after almost 10 years back in the UK. R and X make more sense to me but I'm aware that its all subjective. I'd also claim that groundfall is WAY more likely to happen at the average British crag than in a lot of counties and so I can understand Brits developing a grading system that focused on danger rating.

I like this idea and it would be a cool extra bit of information to have. I’m really not sure how I’d grade a Yosemite wide crack or chimney in U.K. grades but I’ve no problem discussing grading thoughts with climbers whose background and skillset I’m more likely to share. I do think you’d end up seeing typical “first week of the trip” type routes getting inflated grades as inexperienced, sun-addled Brits get a beat down but I’m not sure there’s much we could do about that.