UKC

The list of routes marks both routes you didn't finish and routes you rested or fell on with a red cross.  Now a DNF can only be regarded as a failure, but an ascent with rests or falls is still an ascent.  OK, it may not have been done in the ideal style, but it can still represent an achievement.  Lumping both these together is disheartening, but the only way around it is not to honestly record the style and make a comment in the notes where you have rested or fallen.

I feel it would be better if these could be distinguished - perhaps a red tick for a completed ascent with rests or falls?

Actually dogging to the top is worse than failing and lowering off and going again, as there's probably more wear on placements. Dogging is not an ascent, its a failure. Failure is ok but lets not start calling things what they are not!!

In my logbook and ticklists I am, on the whole, more than happy to have the red-cross-of-shame next to routes that I've dogged. It reminds me that I need to go back and climb them properly.

Exactly, it reminds me to try harder and get better, or that there are some things I can't do, which is fine! Sometimes we try hard and fail, that's ok.

Depends how you perceive failure. It's either disheartening, or it could be motivation to go back and try again. The routes I've probably got most obsessed about are the ones I've failed to clean on first visit. Sometimes when I'm climbing well I like to view my dogged red crossed routes as a shortlist of what needs another try. I'd definitely keep the red crosses. The one big grey area I suppose are some routes which are traditionally dogged (French free) due to one pitch or move being way harder than the rest of the route.

By dogging you mean heaving up on the rope?  No, that's not an ascent, but an ascent with falls I'd say still is an ascent, just not a clean one.

My point is that there are degrees of both failure and success, and how you see them is a personal thing.  A DNF is a definite failure, but an "unclean" ascent is different, depending on the nature of the route and your attitude to it.  In some cases, where you feel you should have managed it clean, you may regard it as a failure. However it it is a route you may not have expected to get up then  you may feel you have achieved something, albeit with room for improvement.  That's usually my perspective, and if I've managed to struggle to the top of something, however imperfectly, I'd like my logbook to be a bit more nuanced to reflect that, not dismiss it as a failure.

If you do regard these as failures and want to be reminded of them so you can try harder, my suggestion of a red tick would achieve this while still distinguishing them from DNFs (which should still get red crosses) and from clean green-tick ascents.

I've just returned from Kalymnos, where I observed that falling, resting and dogging appeared to be the standard approach of a large number of climbers.

Absolutely. But so can a DNF -- maybe it means that I challenged myself by getting on a route that was intimidating for me and gave it a really good shot, even if I was defeated in the end.

Conversely, a "dogged" route could be a major achievement for me, and a route I feel I could lead cleanly next time, or it could be a terrible mess.

For that matter, a green tick can mean "I made an embarrassing mess of this route and somehow managed to stay on by sheer luck, but should really have been able to climb it much better".

There's no way that red or green or ticks or crosses will be able to capture all the nuances, and it's unreasonable to expect them to.

I know what's an achievement for me personally, and I've used the notes to keep track of that.

Like others, I like the red crosses because they're debts to settle! Except in a few cases where they're reminders to never, ever go near that route again ...

See “euro dogging” thread !

A DNF can be much, much more than a dogged ascent. eg giving it everything and falling off the last move v resting on everything

Yes, I normally only record clean ascents, but did a load of very wet sports routes recently.  I had a lot of fun, but had to sit on the rope to dry off crucial holds at times.  Recorded these as dogged and got the dreaded Red Cross!  A kick in the teeth for climbing on a day when it was really dripping!  In reply to Howard J:

Well yes, alternately it can be getting shut down almost immediately vs doing a lot of bold ground-up climbing, fighting to get the gear in in time, a solitary fall/rest then continuing up to the top. Depends how you pick your examples.

If I were to do a route which is traditionally dogged, then I'd still give myself the green tick as I'd done it in the prescribed style, however I'd make a note of any such dogging that occurred.

This was a pretty easy change to make.

• Dogged is now a orange X
• DNF is a red X (as before)

Great, thanks

It's your logbook, use it however you want to. For example if it bothers you and you want a tick by dogged routes then don't note a style but add a comment.

jk

Intriguing, but I can't find it using search.

I think what this discussion has revealed is that people use these differently.  Some people regard both DNF and dogged as failures and treat them both the same.  Others may regard dogged ascents as at least partial successes.

Using different colours distinguishes these types of ascent from each other whilst still being clearly different from a clean green-tick ascent.  I don't see how this disadvantages people who don't distinguish between them., they can simply ignore the different colour.  As you say, it's up to the individual to use their logbook how they wish, and uses can either ignore the different colours or use them as they wish.  This just allows another option.

And some, like me, don't use dnf/dogged at all. Skews my stats I know but the failure/come back to list lives on in my head!