UKC

A request for any people who have successfully trained endurance as a semi-beginner climber. 

I'm 56 and I've been climbing for about two years. Living in the Highlands that means indoor to begin with and then I've got into trad over the last couple of years and lead up to a HS onsight and a VS repeat (and seconded a couple of E1s and an E2). Indoors I've climbed at about 6b with a couple of 6c+ insights at 3WM (and in the sadly closed Ice Factor). 

I'd like to climb some more trad but the couple of climbs I've wanted to have a go at (HVS Right Wall at Kingussie for instance) have had me pumped on a 'mock' trad lead (although climbed as an easy'ish second). 

There's so much different info about endurance that I was hoping to get some people with experience to suggest something I could do. I have a mini bouldering wall at home (Ballachulish) with vert, 15 and 25 degree section and try to get out the climbing wall once a week.

Anybody any suggestions about building trad endurance for chicken climbers who would like to onsight stuff?

Not really the answer you’re looking for but lead as much trad as possible and build your confidence up. I don’t think anything you do indoors is going to be all that helpful at those grades. If you are finding a climb much harder to lead than second it might be more of a problem with you head/gear placement/outdoor technique than your arms! For example, I climb similar grades to you indoors but lead up to E1 and do no particular training nor do most of the people I’ve climbed with who climb similar grades. 

Aerobic capacity training should help. Do lots of easy climbing, with a pump level varying from no pump through to “pumped but in control”. You don’t have to get really pumped but it should be tiring. Do this 2-3x week for 6-8 weeks. You should be pretty fit after this.

You don’t really need to do this to climb HVS - improved confidence and plenty of mileage should do it - but it won’t do any harm.

I think it's mainly this particular route that is just sustained all the way but fairly easy and so putting gear in is probably the crux. I've seconded a fair few E1s and two E2s (on a tightish rope). 

And yeah, it's mostly head game but having the endurance to stay holding on for a long time does wonders for the head!

Tim

I think it's the particular route as it's so sustained and spending three times as long getting enough gear in for me to be happy to potentially fall off is probably the crux. I'm planning on getting a lot more trad in over this season, although it would help to be able to go out and second a bunch of harder stuff as well, I'll have to try harder to find a partner! (anybody willing in the Fort William area let me know! I work for myself so free in the week)

Hi Tim.

I've done various things mainly in prep for overseas mutipitch trad... seemed to work quite well for me both in terms of toning up and improving confidence (I was aiming mainly around multipitch HVS onsight equivalent for US or Spain or UK away from my home gritstone).

A mix of:

Be more disciplined about stretching and diet the month before. Have at least 3 rest days each week (maybe do some aerobic work on some of those).

Go easy the week before the climbing starts on the trip.

On your board I reckon a minute on - minute off session would be a good one to do. Aim for 10 reps. You don't want to be pumped after the first minute, but aim to be pumped at the end - that's to help gauge how hard it should be.

An important aspect which I don’t think has been mentioned is relaxing on the route. On the sharp end, it’s very easy to get a bit gripped and end up holding on too tightly and so get pumped which can be a viscous circle. Try to avoid over gripping and focus on finding what rests or half rests that you can. 

Easily said but incredibly hard to train at one's trad limit, especially later in life when you are much more aware what can go wrong. I prefer gradually widening 'safety margins' whilst staying positive based on experience and training (gear's good and the grade is OK so just look carefully, think, and commit).

If you're climbing 6b+ inside that should be plenty to get up E1/2 outside, so something else is missing.

Outside trad routes often follow crack lines so get proficient at jamming - not easy to train on the plastic.

Outside routes are often longer, so 2-3 sets of 15 minutes of continuous easy climbing (laps on the auto belay / old skool traversing) 10 minutes rest, twice a week builds stamina. Use these to do movement drills e.g. elbow has to touch hold before pulling, silent feet, glue feet.

The above sorts the physical, (aside from jamming in all probability) but only mileage is going to sort the mental side of trad leading, spotting rests, placing gear you're confident in, not over gripping, knowing when it is better to make another move to a good rest before placing a piece etc. 

I disagree with that. Onsighting E1 consistently is noticably harder to do than climbing F6b+ consistently (and thats when the indoor grades aren't soft touch ). At my very best and fittest I never onsighted UK E1 consistently as a trad specialist but I could flash a significant number of F6b+ I tried (and could redpoint most), even though I didn’t sport climb very often.

There are endless articles on training, but for me it usually comes down to what you can do and what you can stomach.

If you have time and an autobelay handy, then I think a session where you do 15mins continuous climbing at 5 - 6a is a good start to a session. You can then do repeaters on routes that are harder, i.e. 6b x 4 with only the descent as a rest. Then 10 mins rest and another set. Perhaps 4 sets. Then 15mins continuous climbing again at the end. That's just a sketch: fit the session to your own needs.

If you have a lead partner, try to lead routes that are at least slightly overhanging, rather than sticking to vert. On vert, sometimes you can try to find all the rests possible as an exercise; other times, avoid milking hands off rests, so you maintain a bit of a pump.

In a broad brush stroke way, anything that gets you stronger will also help you last longer as you will find the moves easier, so pullups, pushups, a max difficulty focused bouldering session every week...

I'm sure there are more scientific approaches, but usually the obstacle is how dull these are... If you're not having fun, it quickly feels pointless.

As for actually leading, you need to get so you're selecting the right gear first time 4/5 times; you need to think strategically about when to place gear and when to move on, so you're not pumping out whilst placing gear; finding rest positions and positions of balance is an art that can always be refined further.... Relaxing, getting rid of excess fear... and possibly excess gear! There are many different aspects to work on that help at least as much as training.

Oh... and hand jams in horizontal breaks are a revelation, endurance-wise. Jamming is such a great way to save your forearms and placing gear off a jam can be positively restful.

I would say you weren't reaching your physical potential when trad climbing. F6b+ should be in the (admittedly very wide) UK tech 5c bracket. If you can consistently flash 6b+ you have the physical ability to get up (for example) Dead Banana Crack (E1 5c) what's stopping you is between your ears.

To those I help early leading on grit I say never pass a jam without using it and practice relaxed hands on the jam (if you have pro next to them). Sub VS leaders are never going to be hanging their bodyweight from jams and a horizontal break jam on steep slab can give genuine recovery of finger strength.

I totally agree about the fun point...as such I'd prefer a tad more outdoor practice than indoor (if you live an hour or so or less to outdoor rock, just save indoor for bad weather days). Fingerboards are a recipe for injury unless you know what you are doing ... does anyone seriously recommend one for a VS leader unless it's someone with really strong tendons but near paralysed by trad fear (a few f7A boulderers I know have never led harder than VS).

I'd say you're patronising me, not reading what I said and not being consistent with what you wrote. Consistently flashing proper F6b+ is very different to climbing something labelled F6b+ indoors (IMHO putting a climber into being capable of redpointing a good number of proper F7a).

For what its worth, cracks, slabs and overhangs were my better skillsets. I seconded DBC so couldn't onsight it... still I suspect it would have been no issue for me as it was mainly E1 5c for the crux.

Outdoors, and locally (for the limited number of sport routes I've been on in Oban (bolted by Mr McLeod) and Arisaig (bolted by Kennedy) I can climb some 6a+ but I stand no chance on the 30m 6b in Oban (Vomitorium) even though I could do all the moves. 

I think starting climbing at 55 means my finger strength is developing slowly (I can only just hang a Lattice 20mm edge for 5s) and so most harder things I seem to get up, I tend to 'tech' my way up. Anything sustained crimpy and I'm screwed. 

With a lack of finger strength comes a lack of finger endurance. Finger strength isn't going up fast at my age so I'm working on the endurance side instead. (and obviously the technique, rests etc)

In terms of 'consistently flash in Oban' then it would be non sustained 6a/+ which is probably tech 5a (maybe 5b) which might sound about right.  So the sustained HVS 5a would be hard for me.

Thanks - sounds sensible to me .. mileage will work wonders too

You wrote "Onsighting E1 consistently is noticably harder to do than climbing F6b+ consistently", and that's what I'm (partially) disagreeing with. In terms of the physical effort and skills required, F6b+ is well above most E1s, the difference is the mental demands of trad climbing.

This suggests a red point is very do-able

Welcome to the lodge, brother

Endurance does respond to training quicker than strength though

There are plenty of sustained HVSs that could be graded E1! (they're only a guide really) much depends on the history of the area, the first ascensionist and the subsequent guidebook teams

Personally, I think this is nonsense: indoor grades tend to be soft, steep and juggy, with relatively big feet. Outdoors, climbing is far more technical, harder to read, with feet tending to be smaller and hands far more varied, including jamming techniques. Add to that several extra kilos for clothes, rack, approach shoes, and the fact that you are regularly having to find stable positions to stop place gear... It's not even comparable. Even if we say "purely physically" (as if such a thing could be isolated... what does this even mean? Grip strength? Endurance? Precision? Flexibility? Proprioception?), it is significantly harder to onsight UK 5c than indoor 6b/+... Most people I know who are able to regularly os UK 5c are able to regularly flash or quickly RP 7a indoors.

I was referring to climbing indoor F6b+ consistently not flashing proper F6b+ consistently.

I'm sticking to my views. I'd add its not just mental demands for trad it's wider breadth of skill sets for onsight trad plus the extra weight of a trad rack and factors like ropework complexity and rope drag. I've belayed climbers on F6b+ indoor leads who couldn’t second some non sandbag grit E1 crack classics let alone lead them.

You confused me by referring to it as sport climbing, which I assumed meant outdoors

As I said in my 1st reply to the OP, crack climbing is not easily trained indoors. And I think we can agree that climbing walls can't grade for toffee. 

E2A; maybe you could persuade Alan to re-jig this ? 

I started climbing again age 70. I stopped when I was mid 30's climbing E3 with a few E4's. I would say my lead grade last year was HS with a few VS's. There might have been a bit of residual finger strength left but mostly my climbing strength has been built up over the last 4 years.

I can lead most vertical 5's indoors and some soft touch 6a's. I can't get near 6b and struggle on overhanging stuff, especially locking off to get over the lip of an overhang. I cannot do a single pull up or push up. However I found my technique was still there and my runner placement was still good. Also my leading head came back almost immediately.

From my experience If I was in your position I would get out on rock as much as possible at a grade that I was comfortable with so that I could place gear, climb above gear, find rests etc. Your fitness is clearly not what is stopping you climbing harder but more a lack of experience in leading trad and the remedy for that is climb more trad.

If it is Right-Hand Crack (HVS 5a) at Kingussie that you find pumpy, your not the only one! A lot of HVSs have better rests. Most of the problem comes from hanging around to place the gear rather than the actual climbing. Smart tactics can also help as well as actual endurance: finding the optimal positions to place gear from, straight arms and/or jams while placing, fast and accurate placing and clipping, not placing gear at full stretch, putting the first 1 or 2 pieces in and reversing to the ground for a rest. 

Others have mentioned really good training sessions that will help train your endurance indoors, but my bet is that it's far more effective to try and do LOADS of trad outdoors to build up your confidence. So much of trad is head game - and it's amazing how what can feel like a really restful position on the second can feel horrendous on lead! By the sounds of it, you're strong enough to be pretty steady on HVS, so it's just the stress of leading/being faffy with gear thats holding you back. Start of doing loads of HS and VSs and get to a point where they're pretty stress free, then push on! Take your time with it - no rush. I really struggled with head game too when I started trad climbing, but coming from a strong sport climbing background - a lot of people encouraged me to push my grade, and I had some pretty awful times from taking things too fast. Stay relaxed and keep things fun, and the harder grades will come! 

Some general advice for getting more confident on trad!
Also, as you get really familiar with a grade, the head game becomes much easier! Ie, if you're steady at a grade and there is a section that looks a bit cheeky for the grade, look around and there is bound to be a bomber piece of gear to protect it. Equally, if you're run out - you know the climbing will be steady! Also, try to link up pieces of climbing between rests. Look for good footholds, and big juggy handholds where you can chill out, place loads of gear, de-stress, and focus on linking these bits up nice and smoothly. This is mega on longer pitches of climbing, where looking at the whole route can feel quite overwhelming.
 

Might be worth having a session with a decent coach to identify weaknesses/strengths  and an appropriate training plan? Might be that you think the issue is endurance but it might actually be poor technique or something else.

That's the one Mark!! Glad it's not a normal HVS then

Agree with everything else, especially the 'downclimbing' tactic (to the ground or to comfy rests)!!

Thanks for that Oscar! Good advice and I think fits my plan for the year...  I'll make the most of Polldubh, Kingussie and Weeping Wall (my local crag)

Thanks Rick - I really appreciate the answer...  I've been really enjoying what I've been doing so far and hope to be doing it for a while yet!

Is there a bouldering wall you go to? A good training exercise is to go when it's relatively quiet and stay on the wall for 45m to an hour at a time. No touching the mats. Use whatever holds, find rests, etc. but just stay on.

I've spent ages on a single pitch, and being able to find rests and not pump out is all experience. You get the same from just climbing a lot of trad also. 

I remember doing my CWI where we played some games. One was to traverse the wall and get through a hoop, put on then take off a jacket, etc. I performed a lot better in this than the other climbers, who were significantly better indoor and sport climbers than me. They just weren't really used to having to hang on for ages and muck about finding restful positions. 

I've asked several  times over the years on UKC as it's muddled  (a super sustained safe HVS 4c and a short sharp crux safe HVS 5c would be pretty much the same sport grade) and comparative averages are wrong for sport. Grades vary a lot inside countries but the average lead/onsight grades for UK, US and UIAA are all too low cf the sports grades  (a misalignment which gets worse from F6bish when grades are more redpoint) . As an example F5+ is equivalent to easy to middle HVS onsight which is similar to well protected Californian 5.8 granite. To put it more simply, the green, orange and red colour bands should align (with a few tweaks...5.6, 5.7 and 5.8 are orange as are UIAA Vs).

5.8 X on CA granite would be at least E2 ... maybe upto E4 on some JT slabs (I backed off onsight and only just worked TR a 5.9 R slab at Indian Cove that I'd give E5 6a on Froggatt)

I'm about the same age and also started climbing in my 50s, so this all sounds a bit familiar! I think at this age your body doesn't respond to training the same way as youngsters, so a lot of the typical advice either doesn't work or takes ages and you have to be patient. I definitely found strength training useful, eg fingerboarding with a pulley system to get weight off then increasing the load very gradually. And weighted pullups feel like they give you a power boost, so you relax a bit more on cruxes knowing you've got this on tap. There's outdoor bouldering near me so I tend to do this a lot as well. Good advice here but don't neglect strength/hypertrophy as you get older, seems to work for me. Also, don't get too hung up on grades/style!

Absolutely - I try and train strength just for the health benefits too. I've had some good improvements in pull up strength recently. Gone from 1 to 5 pull up sets since I finally realised I was well low on protein intake and have supplemented it (common for older training I think)

And yeah, I have a decent pully system to train fingers over the last year. After adaptation improvements, I've gone from -15kg to -5kg sets on the 20mm edge so something is improving. I tend to do pully supported pull ups so I can get some speed going as well and also get a bit higher/locked off.

My advice may be way out of date and old-fashioned (since I started about 57 years ago), but what I found the very best training for trad climbing was sustained bouldering - not working hard individual problems, but doing circuits on relatively easy problems (where each move would probably be about as hard as a crux on an E1 or E2). Best of all, I liked to do low level traverses, back and forth, keeping continually off the ground for half an hour (say) at a time. One could also practice relaxing in awkward positions, as though placing gear etc (and one can also practice actually placing gear quickly and efficiently). Almscliff, back in the day (late '60s, early '70s) used to be superb for that type of training. I found it better for stamina than doing routes and better by far than (the limited) climbing walls at the time, because the moves tend to be way more interesting and realistic - because one is on real rock!

Have you tried doing the route extra slowly on second? 

It's always harder to relax and climb efficiently on lead, but you want to try to minimise the difference.

Hang out at gear placements, maybe take one piece of gear out and replace it with another one and generally mimic leading without the stress.

If you fall off doing that, you know it's your endurance that's holding you back from being able to lead it, but if you find it relatively easy it's the stress of being on lead.

It's better to determine that before you go too far down the road of thinking you need to get physically fitter - this can become a cul-de-sac that stops your progression.

I've tried it both ways to be honest. I don't get a chance to go on harder climbs so I sometimes use the experience to try climbing as 'lightly' as possible. But doing it more slowly would probably help - as a second it goes against my instincts though

Nice idea though and it's certainly something I'll try!

I've found dry tooling over this winter has done wonders for my endurance, both physically and the mental ability to relax and shake out while hanging on tools and less than perfect rests.

Nice idea - one for next season then definitely!

There are a few options at the grades you're looking at where routes aren't relentless:

You can get stronger and fitter so the tricky bits feel easier. Never a bad idea but it's not unlocking any latent potential.

You can get smoother and more comfortable, less worry and tension means less over gripping, less or at least delayed pump for the same amount of fitness. This takes exposure to the problem which has the side benefit of increasing fitness.

You can climb smarter, recognise and really work the rests. Use them to recover and plot a path through the tricky bits to the next rest. I'm not saying rest then rush through those without placing gear but methodically work your way into the cruxes, placing gear, backing out to rest then incrementally onward and backward until you're ready to press on to from the last gear or known holds to the next rest. It's a slow methodical way to climb but when approaching your limit it does allow you do so much more safely than the blasting on with ruined arms desperately throwing in gear as fast as you can (we've all done it and it makes memories!).

jk

Hey Tim,

Get yourself up to the NW, the crags abound with excellent VS and HVS routes that are techy but usually with a short sharp crux on big holds. Gruinard Bay and Loch Tollaidh are both good venues for this sort of stuff. They also have a good spread of routes that are fairly short so can get loads of relevant mileage in. 

I find the climbing on Mica Schist quite difficult and Glen Nevis HVS is often harder than an E2 in the NW, such is the silliness of the grading system but it’s definitely worth breaking out of the usual Lochaber spots to get some experience elsewhere. 

Hi Nathan, 

Me and my wife have plans for a North West trip this year anyway (being as foreign holidays are out financially and ethically at the moment - and it's better than most foreign holidays when it's good!). We were hoping on Reiff as well but I've heard really good things about Gruinard  - I used to go for photography before I climbed so know it quite well... 

Thanks for the reply!

Tactics are defitely something to develop - a few routes I've done so far have mostly been shorter cruxes (curving crack, satans slit) and I can see how a bit of planning around them would make things a lot less 'stressy'. Thanks

Yeah the Three Wise Monkeys in Fort William is pretty good and hopefully we'll get a new Ice Factor with bouldering at some point (I won't set my alarm). I don't boulder as much as my wife doesn't like it but I should just get down on my own sometimes

Reiff is great as well, the stuff by the car park seems softer for grade and the stuff at the tip of the headland feels a bit harder, but I haven’t done loads there just a few days. It’s a brilliant place to go lose yourself for a while. The style is more gritstone like with rounded breaks and cracks, it takes a bit of getting used to but usually pretty well protected if a bit pumpy.

Gruinard really is superb, brilliant views and quality rock make it one of the best cragging venues on the West Coast.