UKC

Has anyone bought this? And can offer a bit of a review / information on the content? I've not found any reviews with a cursory google.

Cheers

Hi Stvey,

Yes I have it. It covers some basic nutrition strategies and other topics such as managing insulin levels, pro and anti-inflammatory foods, sleep, fasting supplements etc....

Since buying it I have switched to a high protein / low carb diet (not full keto in my case) and have never felt better. Improved recovery, steady and consistent energy levels throughout the day and have lost over a stone since January.

In summary it was the best £20 I've ever spent!

I can't help with the question - but I mis-read the topic title as "...co-auth'd by Neil Gaiman".

I couldn't help but comment on what a strange book that would be!

I would buy the Gresham / Gaiman Collab immediately. 

Hi Neil, sounds like an interesting book.  Does Neil advise cutting out dairy to be anti-inflammatory?

I've got it. A good read. Helped me a lot. Money well spent. 

No not really. There are some dairy foods that are listed as pro-inflammatory, cheese being one of them. I'm eating more eggs than ever though. 

I thought all this had been settled by Dave Macleod. It’s just burgers now. 

Does it include Marmite?

No, but that is a daily part of my diet that has really helped my climbing. 

Wow. This is an incredibly positive review! Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think I may give it a go, especially if I can find find it for £20; I had expected it to be be more than this tbh. I find it hard to imagine I'll completely overhaul my diet but if I can get some ideas and maybe make a few adjustments to begin with then who knows...

Cheers

Yeah, it was only £20. Available from Neil Gresham's website. It is a 30 or so page PDF document, rather than a "book". Definitely worth it in my opinion.

In reply to stvey:

My initial thoughts….

A pamphlet written by 2 people claiming to be nutrition experts, but aren’t citing any scientific evidence or qualified to back it up. Info is actually contra to current scientific evidence. Strong focus on “weight management”, demonising certain foods etc. All pretty dangerous in a sport with a long history of disordered eating. No references to gender differences. Strong focus on low carb (contra to actual science). No scientific references cited to back any of it up, just a lengthy disclaimer at the end. 
 

Basically I wouldn’t touch this with a barge pole. It’s an N=1 “what I do” notebook. Potentially damaging I’d say. 
 

For actual evidence based advice check out High Performance Dietitian on Instagram, or Useful Coach - they actually currently have a bit to say about this pamphlet. 
 

They can pry my block of cheese out of my cold, dead, puffy hands.

I actually challenged Neil about the info he was presenting as I felt it was incredibly misleading based on my understanding of current science (I’m not a dietitian but my wife is). He was heavily dismissive and has since deleted my comments on his Instagram thread and blocked me. I only asked if he had references to the studies to back it up. And why it came with a disclaimer. It certainly wasn’t personal.

I’m sure there will be more qualified people giving their views on this. Tom Herbert has actually done a short critique on his @usefulcoach Instagram stories. You should check that out for an expert opinion. 

Neil's entire marketing campaign for this book (at least from what I've seen on his social media) has made a little uncomfortable, but I've just had a wee browse on his website and have noticed that the only testimonial for his 'highly acclaimed' nutrition book is from a climber who, since following Neil's advice, is now climbing 6a+.

I'm aware this may sound as though I'm dismissing their experience because of their climbing grade, but I should stress that that's around my current climbing level as well after an extended break due to injury, and I'm in no way looking down my nose at anyone based on their climbing ability. My issue is that in posting this testimonial on his website, Neil is essentially promoting the idea that pursuing a somewhat radical diet strategy is something to be considered by climbers currently operating at a level that most beginners to the sport can attain by just climbing regularly and improving their fitness and technical skill. In a sport that's historically been plagued by disordered eating, I think it's really dangerous and irresponsible for someone with Neil's platform to be pushing this idea so hard online, with a nutritionist who's credentials aren't really known being relied upon to give a vague veneer of authority. There are so many things that an average climber reading Neil's social media output should probably do, if they want to improve their climbing, before thinking of pursuing a dietary strategy that will likely ultimately reduce their calorie intake and potentially open them up to a whole world of health problems. 

Same as the behaviour with the eGrader stuff. Only open to feedback so long as it's positive...

Agree completely here. The problem is, if you are a beginner climber you'll probably progress pretty fast anyway, due to all the factors you describe. Link this up with dropping some weight* and you'll see your grade ballon. If you've paid £20 for a leaflet it's easy to give yourself a bit of confirmation bias that this is what has helped, and ignore everything else. 

*shedding a few kg via calorie restriction is a pretty legit strategy for a peak performance phase, or if you are already overweight - but the key here is that it's not a long-term approach and not the best way to be trying to improve long term via strength gains.

It’s interesting how he thinks just blocking people so he can only hear what he wants to hear makes him look better. Real experts are happy to be questioned and actually really good practitioners are more than happy to say “ok I see your point, maybe I got this wrong”

I’ve nothing against Neil Gresham or Glenn. Neil’s climbing has actually inspired me over the years but this whole thing with his PDF quite frankly appalls me. 
 

He’s got a responsibility when he’s charging money for info like this and posting it all over the internet. And to just throw his dolls out the proverbial pram, delete comments, block people etc ,really does just show he’s entered territory where he’s firmly out of his depth. 

I get the risks of taking any diet to the extreme, but having heard Neil present publically on his experience and from friends on theirs, I am personally persauded that this kind of diet can benefit performance (at the top end of your ability - I am not advocating this as a shortcut to progress up the grades in preference to addressing technique and conditioning).  I also don't think it's as dangerous as you are making out. 

It's not a calorie restricted diet, but it is well established that increasing the proportion of protein intake reduces hunger and you naturally eat less. The diet is for protein and a vegetables, low carb but not necesarily no carb, and restricted processsed sugary food. I don't see that as massively out of kilter with conventional nutritional science and am personally convinced, from my own experince and that of others, that it is beneficial for weight management and training/ performance gains. 

Of course, you can go full keto/ no carbs at all.  At the talk I was at, that was not what Neil was advocating at all, and he was very measured about his recommendations and the relationship between climbing and radical diets.  He was, however, open that for short periods this was one of the factors that contributed to lifetime best performances, but it was not something he could or would sustain all the time.         

Here's what I do:

1) eat what you like

2) if you go up in weight eat less, if you go down eat more

The main issue that I see with any kind of "it worked for me" intervention is that the very fact of having put in the effort to make a change (in this case a nutritional change) you believe will improve your performance, itself may lead to improved performance. The nature of the intervention, as long as it isn't significantly performance inhibiting, may be largely irrelevant.

It's a placebo of confidence and raised expectations. May not mean it hasn't worked, but could well mean that it hasn't worked for the reasons you think it has.

My biggest issue with all this is how dismissive he’s come across in regard to eating disorders in his replies to the now deleted post.

I’ve lived with some one affected by this and it’s brutal.

Neil is a bona fide climbing legend and I’ve not felt v comfortable with some of the jumping on him, regardless of who he is to be honest. I do personally think he’s got some of this wrong though.

It's possible to be a climbing legend but still be wrong on some things which you (Gresham) should be called out for. The issue is when you present n=1 stuff without any supporting science (in this case, because the ebook is not in line with current approaches) and especially the lack of consideration of people with eating disorders. As for just deleting peoples criticisms... if you think your work is defendable you'll do everything you can to present that defence (maybe this is the scientist in me though), not just remove any critique from the public eye. Same with the eGrader stuff (especially the interactions with Franco...).

Hi Max, nice to have your perspective, thanks for replying. 
 

So, firstly - I personally never said this was dangerous as such although I do genuinely believe the info is misleading and badly presented. I did however say it’s a tricky topic in a sport riddled with disordered eating and should be dealt with by professionals. Neil isn’t a professional and I’m inclined to believe that Glenn isn’t either (I’ve asked him and am happy to be corrected on this).

My first thoughts when I received this PDF were that here we have someone with a lot of influence who’s now saying he has “Essential” nutrition advice for climbers and charging 20 quid for it. I read the info and it seemed to be misleading, lots of information that has basically been debunked. This was confirmed when I hilighted it to 3 actual qualified nutrition experts, Rebecca Dent, Ed Smith and Tom Herbert.

When I asked Neil where his reference citations were (I’m a climber and I’m interested) he was hugely defensive, accused me of trolling, spoke derogatorily about qualified experts in the field of nutrition but ultimately couldn’t provide me with the info I asked for and then deleted my comments and blocked me. This level of essentially, arrogance, is pretty bewildering. He has a responsibility when putting out information like this, to be transparent and open to questioning. 
 

In terms of the “danger” aspect, I feel that presenting info as fact, when it actually isn’t (use of the word “essential”) is dangerous. Also the way the info is presented I do feel focuses a little too much on the idea of weight loss rather than optimising body composition. That’s my opinion, but take a look at Glenn’s last 2 Instagram post where he basically uses “weight loss” as his first example rather than eg, gaining muscle mass. 
 

Like I said, this is nothing personal against Neil, but I do think it needs to be hilighted.

Cheers

Kev
 

I completely agree, the level of dismissiveness is concerning and could easily be mistaken  for having a sense of “how dare you question me” arrogance to the whole thing, but I personally think it’s actually just more to do with having no real answers to provide. 
 

Like Ian said, if you believe the info is sound then surely you’d want to present evidence to show this…

Oh I quite agree, no one is above reproach. There’s just a fine line between calling someone out and things getting a bit personal. I’m not sure any lines have been crossed in that regard plus it’s very subjective of course, but it’s easy for things on social media to turn overly nasty.

Totally agree. This is not personal or a witch hunt but a questioning of some information, is it scientifically sound and is said author qualified to provide it particularly as it is titled “essential”?

You're welcome, and likewise, thanks for the context. I'm not following any of this on social media so can't comment on how it is being portrayed or the feedback managed. I don't think the science is hokum, but completely acknowlege the risk that this could influence people to take their diet to extremes (especially those that are somehow susceptable to disordered eating), and therefore the responsbility on influencers to be careful with their messaging. 

Sort of. But not for me.

I've never been on a diet, and I suspect this is why I don't have an unhealthy relationship with food.

If I'm hungry I eat, if I'm full I don't use my stomach as a bin to finish my plate.

Appreciate this may not work for everyone, but I've found that if I just listen to what my body wants in terms of food, my weight doesn't change*.

* To be fair I don't really check my weight often but it doesn't appear to change

Have you watched Dave McLeod's video on Keto? i mean i know its 4 hours, but he backup every argument he puts forward

Now this is actually trolling 🤣🤣

I’m not gonna get started on Dave Mac except to say, that this has also been most definitely debunked by actual experts in the field of nutrition. 

can you share some links to the articles that de-bunk his arguments? i would be interested to have a read

I’m assuming that Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald is a more authoritative guide to nutrition applicable to climbers? But would welcome opinions to the contrary? 

Great that you’re interested in this. You should contact one or all of these people. 
 

Ed Smith at Sheffield Climbing Clinic

https://www.sheffieldclimbingclinic.com/team-members/ed-smith

Tom Herbert aka Useful Coach 

https://useful.coach/?fbclid=PAAabzsaYN4hmBIf4p6-4XT6vEFYsvbXMd5pWEklYMK98d...

Rebecca Dent

https://highperformancedietitian.com/

They all experts in this field and can help you access and understand the research.
 

I've been eating a low-carb (not Keto) diet for the last six years, which has left me feeling like I have infinite energy and I have gone up in weight not down.  I've tried a couple of times to switch to a vegan diet and I just feel lethargic and sluggish.  My diet is not typical low-carb diet since I don't eat any red meat and only a little cheese (for ecological and cholesterol reasons).  Interestingly I looked at Tom Herbert's Instagram after reading your post earlier this week and my diet is almost exactly what he says he would eat if he had to be keto (even though he doesn't see any benefit to doing that!).

My two cents:  You can have unhealthy vegan diets and unhealthy keto diets.  Also, these sorts of diets are hugely linked to people's identities so there ends up being a lot of strong feeling on both sides.  In terms of research diet is a bit of a minefield since you can go on pubmed and read studies which claim to prove exactly opposite things.  I'd say you basically can't go far wrong if you concentrate on eating only whole foods and making sure you don't run a calorie deficit.  

I recently watched an interview Neil did with Dave Mcleod where he (Neil) was repeatedly reticent about recommending his diet to others, so it's a bit surprising to see he is now selling it in pdf form: youtube.com/watch?v=I2wgXc_blao&

Is he being irresponsible? Maybe with the 'essential' branding but in my view he's probably more guilty of naïvely trying to share a diet which has been a real life changer for him. 

Good post. Understanding/appreciating individuality is underrated (and not typically how most "research" operates), and I think that's true both of Gresh's pdf and of a meaningful portion of the criticism targeted at it. IMO: try a bunch of stuff, see what works well for you, if anyone tells you they have the one and only true path then treat everything they say with a very large pinch of salt (not only for nutrition/diet, but also for training and most other things in life where what you care about is what works for you not works works on average for those within the subset selected for a given study)

I think that's fine, and influential climbers posting about their N=1 approaches will always be interesting - but I do agree with Kevin that as soon as you start selling that advice then it takes on another dimension and it becomes more than just "this is what worked for me."

Sure, but then the people criticising Neil are also taking money for giving out diet advice:

https://highperformancedietitian.com/our-services/online-nutrition-programs

Glass houses...stones

I think you’re missing the point. The person you have just linked is a qualified dietician (this is a protected term, you have to be qualified to do it and as as such if you give poor advice, or cause harm you can be fined or struck off by the governing body) with a masters degree in sports nutrition, an IOC diploma (worked with Olympic athletes) and as well as having worked clinically with patients in the NHS, has worked with and continues to work with a huge number of athletes in varying sports, including climbing (Shauna Coxey’s dietitian during her very successful comp career for example).
 

She continues to work with athletes and take money for giving out advice because THAT IS HER JOB. Same as Ed Smith and Tom Herbert and various others who have spoken out this week re Neil’s PDF.
 

Rebecca is fully qualified and gives personalised advice, based on the individual’s needs and latest research. She is current in her knowledge and currently doing a PHD in the subject.
 

If you’re gonna comment, at least make sure you’ve thought it through. I don’t mean for that sound patronising but the whole negative press re the Gresham PDF is that he’s plugging info as “essential for climbing” that has been debunked by current science etc etc 

Are you 5 years old? Listen to yourself.

Fair points, I stand corrected - I had no idea of the qualifications of anyone mentioned in this post.  I still feel like the pile on against Neil is pretty vicious, it would be good to hear from him really...

No worries Max. Yes, it’s a shame that Neil has gone quiet, blocked anybody who questions him, and won’t enter into any dialogue. He basically says people are trolling him, and seemingly doesn’t like any comments unless they are positive or agreeing with him. 
 

This has totally backfired and what has now happened is that a large number of well respected dieticians and nutrition specialists have called his PDF out for what it is.

It’s not a pile on, or personal attack and I wouldn’t condone either. But he and Glenn are presenting information that is inaccurate and misleading, not backed up by the latest research, branding it “essential”, over-egging weight and fat loss in a sport riddled with disordered eating, and thinking they are above scrutiny by rubbishing and “cancel culture” silencing anybody who questions or disagrees with them. 

Why do top level climbers feel the need to rinse climbers who operate at a normal level of hard earned money? If you climb E1 your lifestyle doesn't need to be that of an E11 climber.

kev Avery seems to sum Gresham and programme up very well. 

The last climber I saw giving out diet info was McCloud and that diet was the same I give to my cats. Wonder how his arteries are doing 

This thread has been refreshingly grounded and science based. Breath of fresh air compared to the Dave Mac McDonalds thread a couple of weeks back, where I took a bit of a hammering for basically suggesting n=1 interventions findings may not be reliable.

Its comforting to see that we as climbers haven’t all left grounded scientific reasoning  and methods behind.