UKC

This section seems like the right place to ask…

I would like to increase protein in my diet, and thought I’d try protein powder. Just as a once a day supplement. Or as a boost after a work out. 
 

Does anyone have any recommendations of plant based ones that taste nice?!…. Oxymoron?! 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

https://www.rawsport.com/collections/best-selling-products-1/products/elite...

Salted caramel is decent. Keep an eye out for offers as there's always something on to reduce the price (3 for 2 etc)

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Whichever supplement you choose, I'd recommend listening to the ClimbSci podcast on protein for a good understanding on how the body uses protein, to ensure you're taking it at the right time (despite what the industry tells you, pre-workout and post-workout shakes may not be optimal, unless you're a full time athlete who gets to structure their entire day around training)

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

For plant based protein powder I use https://www.theproteinworks.com/vegan-protein-extreme.

Whey is probably a bit better, from what I have read, but disagrees with me.

The banana and vanilla are quite nice, though not as good as whey based ones.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

I used to knock back this stuff once a day. Gave me the shits but didn’t make me any better at climbing. The SciMx stuff probably tasted the best.

In reply to Ciro:

Thanks, I’ll have a search 👍

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Whey is the way to go if you want to save money or just do like i do,4 egg whites in a pint of milk.I ve  heard about the body not digesting the egg white protien but ive been doing it for years and you should see my biceps.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Save your money and just eat well, cheaper and better long term. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Not realistic for everyone though. There can be many reasons for supplementing. Eating disorders, illness, diet restrictions. It’s not just about people being lazy, and even if that is the reason, who are we to judge?

I use supplements for my own reasons.

In reply to jezb1:

I've no objection to people literally peeing their own good money away, but in 99% of cases eating a wholemeal bread, chicken and salad sandwich more than suffices as a post training snack. You can go into complete/incomplete proteins, sources for all amino acids etc.. but most people aren't putting in the level of training for that to matter. But as you say each to their own. 

Note. In my youth I've wasted good money on shakes, powders (legal stuff), creatine etc.. I think the only advantage for most people is psychological, because you've spent the money, taken the supplement, then you train harder to justify it, or to feel you haven't wasted it.  

In reply to ExiledScot:

Protein and Creatine both have a lifetimes worth of studies showing their potential benefits, well beyond psychological, along with training of course.

Theres plenty of food sources for protein but protein shakes aren't necessarily expensive, mine works out at 50p per shake, for 20g of protein. “Peeing it away” may of course happen if you’re ingesting too much for your body to deal with, but not if you have a sensible amount.

Especially in recent years, so many climbers are putting a ton of time into training, perhaps spending quite a lot on training plans, gym memberships etc. why wouldn’t they consider their diet and perhaps supplements?

In reply to ExiledScot:

I agree with you here in principle but there are two large benefits to using protein supplements - convenience and in my case, appetite. Despite being a typical "hard gainer" with a very high metabolism (up to 100g carbs per hour required during long bike rides to keep me ticking over), I've never had a big appetite. Eating enough protein during a strength cycle always leaves me feeling sick and bloated. Supplementing food with protein powders (which are much lower volume) helps me avoid this and I imagine I'm not alone.  

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Pea protein is the best in my experience. Very neutral. I just get a bulk bag of unflavoured and mix it in to smoothies, or some cocoa and soya milk etc makes an easy chocolate flavour. Add banana for banana flavour etc. Choco banana peanut butter is a good option. 

In reply to jezb1:

Of course, never said otherwise, but for most it's drifting into the realms of Brailsford's marginal gains of single digit percentage improvements, when overall diet, a training plan, hydration, rest, recovery, sleep, complementary exercises etc.. help bring double digit improvements. You train hard, study it etc.. so you know climbing training isn't about growing muscle mass, it's endurance, neuro muscular recruitment for strength, and so on... so protein intake isn't the biggest player, much of the science states there's a two hour window after training for consuming a balanced meal, so all these people drinking shakes as they walk out of the gym are being duped to a degree. As said each to their own, but people should realise a healthy snack is just as good.

In reply to ExiledScot:

Keeping on top of protein isn't only about "growing muscle mass".

In reply to ExiledScot:

I'm what decade was a chicken and salad sandwich on wholemeal bread cheaper than a protein shake? 

(although I do agree with what you're saying in general. I just don't think the cost thing is true.) 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Climbers do tend to have well developed forearms and I'm presuming it's muscle.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Any increase in a climbers muscle mass from climbing, on daily level, will require so little extra protein that a normal diet will provide it. 

I think people buy into hype about people eating whole chickens, loads of raw eggs etc.. too much. It obviously sells supplements, because people buy into it. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

???

I never mentioned diet.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

I use Bulk Whey protein, chocolate. There are 2 varieties- 'pure' which cost a bit more, and the cheaper 'essential'. You lose 3 grams of protein per scoop with the cheaper one, plus it tastes a bit icky and is more difficult to dissolve so I go with the pure which you can get for about £53 for 2.5kg.

I mix this with 200ml of semi-skimned and 50grams of ground oats, and I also eat a banana with this too. It's quick and healthy, and the cost is probably less than £2 a time. It saves time and money.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Or you could try eating only beef patties from McDonald's for some huge strength gains 💪😅

In reply to Climbing Stew:

It's also especially worth being more aware of one's protein intake if moving to a plant-based diet, as is more common nowadays. When on a plant-based diet, unless one is very conscious of it, it is so easy to be well below the RDA of protein and to omit crucial amino acids. A very easy way of rectifying this is by including protein powder (e.g. pea or hemp) in one's diet.

In reply to Climber_Bill:

another vote for protein works vegan (my tummy doesn't like whey) chocolate, it's well nice

In reply to ExiledScot:

As someone who was following a training plan, has a good diet, etc. but was not putting on muscle mass and then checked out my recommended protein intake against what I was getting for my age (older) and I was well short. Increased protein through whey shake and it was almost like a miracle cure. So much so that my osteopath noted the change in my musculature. 

Now I've always fasted (one meal day) and I'm 56 so I have a couple of things that made my default protein intake low but protein is very much a major influence in hypertrophy.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

I used to be very rude about protein shakes but changed my opinion. They are really useful if (and maybe only if) you need to keep protein consumption high at low daily calories. Excellent for sports requiring increased muscle mass (impact sports, bodybuilding, strength training)

But .. I'm not at sure sure whether high protein at low calories is very important for climbers?

Maybe we should dip into some Dave MacLeod, he's bound to have explained this one already 

In reply to ExiledScot:

I will happily reiterate the words of ExiledScot. As a climbing coach working with advanced athletes, I discourage climbers/anyone from developing a sense of virtue replacement, i.e. if I have one or two shakes per day, I can blissfully ignore my poor sleep habits, diet, hydration etc.

95% of people who use protein supplements or creatine do not in any way, subscribe to a training pattern where these products will benefit them to any useful degree.

Beware of willful ignorance. It is better to understand what these things are and why/how they may benefit the individual. I wont start about individuals who consume both protein supplements and alcohol daily, but as ES said, each to their own. Do something better with the money, unless you are Toby Roberts etc...

In reply to Fishmate:

Smells like a completely made up number that does..!

In reply to Climbing Stew:

Your answer is a perfect example of willfull ignorance.

It's easier to shout something negative than educate yourself. Each to their own.

In reply to Fishmate:

Not really. I'm fairly well educated on the subject of nutrition in relation to sport.

Protein and some other supplements have their place. The science proves that.

Many people seem to forget that they're supplements. They're not intended to replace "regular" food, but be used in addition to them.

If you're going to claim some expertise I find it's best not to make up stats like "95%".

In reply to Climbing Stew:

Heady words indeed. Humour me. What you've said above that line is of course, correct. I'm unsure why you say it as no one is disputing that. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge understands this.

How many people are literally, what we could say are 'athletes'? 1-2% of the population? I'm guessing, and also asking you for your opinion here. By athlete, I mean people for whom their life is defined by training and competing, with no other job to speak of. That life is defined by the output of their training schedule, diet, recovery, little to no social life, no alcohol or other detrimental nutrients, exceptional rest etc etc.

Let's add a couple more percent for our nations part-timers (fell runners, power-lifters, a handful of climbers, add other disciplines as you wish). Basically individuals who need to work to support their passion and aside from their paid employment follow the same rules as the 1-2% professionals.

Such individuals generate a sufficient amount of output, so as to require and benefit from additional nutrients. The key here is that you have to create sufficient output to be in this class. Feeling as though you do a couple of tough workouts or sessions per week or even daily, does not qualify and most definitely not if you aren't following the rules of the 1-2% in the first place.

Studies suggest the figure is even higher. I've done my research and most definitely do not claim to be an expert. It's interesting that my previous few lines make you consider I may think I am. The subject is vast and the best we can do is to keep expanding our knowledge. That requires passion for learning, not online argument..

In reply to ExiledScot:

I get this. But easier said than done with a full time job and 2 young children. I know I can make as many excuses as possible, but atm I am fasting until 2pm each day and then eating a small healthy lunch and dinner. I’d like to add extra protein mid afternoon as a boost.

In reply to Fishmate:

He probably got the impression you were claiming expertise because you claimed to be coaching elite climbers? Then came out with a stat to support your point.

As others have pointed out and you yourself seem to agreeing, supplementation is not a golden bullet but can have a beneficial place for lots of people. Why you make it a mutual exclusive I.e. supplements INSTEAD of sleep/ rest/ structured training is beyond me - surely they overlap and coexist. Protein intake recommendations very wildly based on whoever you ask, but whey protein can be a quick and easy way of getting some protein in that doesn’t necessitate me cooking a chicken or eating another omelette. This on top of good sleep and some decent training = #gains! Don’t get why this has to be adversarial. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

It’s difficult to eat chicken on a plant based diet… it’s also difficult to keep up protein. hence asking for plant based protein recommendations

In reply to Fishmate:

That was probably your appeal to authority on your previous post!

Add my n+1 to the people supporting monitoring and increasing, if required, protein intake, has definitely aided my recovery and therefore training capacity within a week.of course needs to be part of the wider picture, but this is a thread about nutrition. 

In reply to Myr:

This is why I asked. Thank you. 

Although interesting, I didn’t really need opinions on powder vs real food… I’ve done my research.

 Also I’m not doing it for building muscle.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

If you like peanut butter, then peanut flour is worth looking at. It sounds hideous, but is actually very nice. Wads of protein, but ‘defatted’.

People use it as an ingredient for recipes, but it makes a nice shake with soya or oat milk and goes well in stuff like porridge.

Holland and Barrett do a version that has a bit of sea salt and natural sweetener which I think is lovely. I eat it straight from the jar!

https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/ppb-powdered-peanut-butter-o...

In reply to Ramon Marin:

Thank you

In reply to plyometrics:

This is great! And perhaps just what I’n looking for! Thank you!

I have been caught many times by my husband eating peanut butter from the jar! 

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

It was to offer a reason as to why I may have taken the effort to look into the subject, rather than merely hold and offer up an opinion. It was his choice to draw such a conclusion, but most definitely not the only possible conclusion. I'd dare to say, the conclusion of someone who wishes to detract from anothers comment!

I don't see it as being adversarial. The amazing thing about the internet is that it allows published academic research to be made available to the masses. Some of this suggests, many brands of supplements offer next to nothing beyond a placebo effect. Why? They know full well that they will sell, because matey in the gym said it's a must have and wants to believe, i.e. confirmation bias. They also know that very few will look at the list of ingredients (and the quantities of those ingredients) and establish their worth. Go figure..

It is to a degree, exclusive, although not totally. Most of that extra protein will get processed and put to good use during sleep. A good diet aids the process.. It's a comprehensive picture, and not one made of interchangeable parts).

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

You do realise I joined the thread to support adversarial reactions to ExiledScots comment. Just in case yiu hadn't read the whole thread.

In reply to Fishmate:

You have quite a wordy and difficult to follow writing style, so I’m not really sure what point you’re making. There’s a huge amount of research to show that protein and creatine are beneficial to recovery/ strength training and maintenance of body composition. Suggesting that all this is placebo just isn’t true. If you’re suggesting that nobody but elite level climbers need to bother looking after their macro intakes I’ll have to disagree with you I’m afraid. I’m not saying ‘just take protein’ but getting macros right on top of rest/ training will benefit anyone, regardless of level. Especially in relation to the OP who I think is non meat eating. Anyway, I think I’m done - in answer to the OP: just give it a go, I go for the cheapo whey protein and mix in creatine monohydrate, I find pea protein a bit grim tbh. Another alternative is those Skyr yoghurts which have knocking on 50g of protein in a tub ans have some good fats in too. 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Go with Pea. Avoid hemp protein IMO the taste is awful unless you enjoy eating soil, and its low in leucine.

Having tried lots of protein powders, whatever you do, just buy a few small packs of different brands/flavors at first as some are inedible. Don't rush in and buy many kgs!

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

That is a silly comment. To quote myself, "Some of this suggests, many brands of supplements offer next to nothing beyond a placebo effect". I'm confident my wordiness didn't mask that.

Taken from the Harvard Medical School site. "Anyone considering protein powder should understand that it is classified as a dietary supplement, which means it is not regulated in the same way as food or medicine. Responsibility falls on manufacturers to ensure that their products are not hazardous, though many companies do not test for safety or efficacy before their offerings hit shelves".

I'll leave it there. I'm glad your approach works for you.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo: great, you know what you want and why you want it. I’m having good results from Myvegan.com products which came recommended by my daughter. Usually possible to get a code to reduce the price. She takes it as a vegan to supplement her diet, I take it as whey doesn’t work for me and as an older person I wasn’t getting enough protein through my diet as we are pretty much meat free. It’s working for me. Various flavours and types, I’m liking the chocolate and the strawberry plus the clear protein drinks. Others have mentioned the pea proteins and I find them ok. Whoever said not to buy in bulk to start with is spot on, shop about and find what you like.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Protein pills work well, as long as you remember to put your helmet on.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

Thank you. Yes your answer was all I was asking for in my original question. 
 

The arguments have been an interesting read though! 

In reply to John Stainforth:

I don’t understand? 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

 

All I wanted to know was which ones tasted nice! 
 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Classic UKC! Taste is subjective, but for plant based what I found best was a flavoured pea protein e.g. 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pure-Source-Nutrition-Chocolate-Vegetarian/dp/B08L...

or an unflavoured pea protein (which is gross by itself imo) e.g.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Farmer-Petes-Pea-Protein-Powder/dp/B08YNZSWM5/ref=...

mixed with some Huel (which is expensive but they often have first time buyer discounts). 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

It’s a quote from Space Oddity… youtube.com/watch?v=iYYRH4apXDo&

In reply to Wimlands:

Ah, thanks! 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

I like Impact Whey Chocolate mixed into Fage Full fat yogurt - makes it taste like Chocolate cake mix when my mum used to let me scrape out the mixing bowl

(I still do this)

In reply to ExiledScot:

Do you realise how ignorant and stupid you sound with this statement. 

Do you think that every athlete in the world is wrong? As I guarantee they all supplement

In reply to Wyre Forest Illuminati:

Much of the research supporting protein supplementation is conducted with untrained novices over a 10-12 week period (study then fits nicely into US  university semester) performing a machine resistance program, of leg extensions or fairly similar. Have a dip into pubmed and see.

You have to be critically minded how well those studies can predict the efficacy for non novice rock climbers. (My personal *opinion* as AFAIK there aren't many studies either way on that population)

Protein supplements are an excellent tool for bodybuilders on a cut, but it's really sketchy evidence for climbers!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Some "athletes" are ultra heavyweight power lifters, some are dressage riders, some are rhythmic gymnasts some are darts players (who might self identify as athletes ), some are climbers and a myriad of other types too!

Do you think it's wise to lump such disparate people as "athletes " with such disparate goals into one camp?

I agree it would be daft to say that protein supplements have no valid uses for any athlete, but the question here is whether it has merit for rock climbers

In reply to CantClimbTom:

How do you meet your recovery goals (grams) after a climbing session? You do realise protein isn't just for building muscle don't you?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I do, but that is a straw man comment. I'm not suggesting protein isn't useful or used by the body

I'm asking if there's evidence that supplementing intake with protein supplements (assuming a reasonable or better diet already) is linked to any climbing performance benefit.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

If you can get ALL your protein needs from your diet then well done. I very much doubt most can. It's not about evidence. It's about getting or not getting the minimum protein in to your body. It's not rocket science. 

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

You've distilled the essence of the debate there. What is a person's protein requirement?

There are studies that conclude it's about 1/2g per kg bodyweight (based on people who are barely strong enough to use a keyboard and are fairly sedentary).

Then you get some study for power lifters or Olympic style weightlifters that conclude that it's at least 2 or 3g per kg bodyweight before you hit dimishing returns.

So what is the daily protein requirement for some population of rock climbers. All we just did is to reframe the question . What we need are empiric studies rather than opinions or assumptions (mine or anyone else's)

In reply to CantClimbTom:

I think more scientific research supports 1.5-2g protein per kg of BW. Even if we go for the lower figure there, 1.5. I weigh 74kg. That's 111 grams of protein i need as a minimum. There's no way I can get that easily through meals alone on a regular basis. 

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

That would be about 16 eggs or half a kilo of steak to bring some ‘just get what you need from eating food’ figures into this. Big ups to everyone who can get these sort of numbers every day without supplements!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Studies for whom? 1.5g/kg is meaningless without context

Sedentary nerd and powerlifter have different (study evidence) requirements of g/kg. Rock climbers will fall somewhere between the two but where? Dave MacLeod discusses this on one of his videos about high performance climbers and vegan diet. His opinion was that it's on the lower side.

But what is your aversion to studies for specific  populations and confident acceptance for an arbitrary 1.5 to 2g per kg? Are you a whey protein salesperson

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

For an athlete who has trained for years, had the easy gains, refined their training plan, sleep, recovery, hydration etc.. then yes it would make a minor difference in the world of chasing small margins. For most climbers, not continuously pushing their limits, or just starting out, everything else will help them improve much quicker. I never said they don't work, only that for 99% it's not that relevant or critical. 

A great number of those athletes probably aren't buying their own supplements either, or have sponsorship deals. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

It's not about gains, it's about the basic building blocks of life/diet. Anyway you're a Scot so I'll leave it there. I wouldn't expect you to understand.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Chicken, fish etc between 20 and 30grams of protein per 100g, so back to my original point of a chicken salad sarnie, add in a few nuts to snack on, drink of milk to wash it down and you can easily top 40grams of protein from a small easily transportable snack. Plus the other goodies you need to replace energy and enable the body to make use of that protein, as well as the fact it's unprocessed solid food, which is way better for the digestive system in every respect. Even mid training, bananas, forget supplements, with sugars, fibre, sodium, potassium, manganese... it has everything you need, it even comes in biodegradable packaging. There's an obsession within many sports to see supplements etc as a short cut, when really they just mimicked what's naturally out there to eat already. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Where you getting your sandwiches that have a 100g of chicken in them? 

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I fully understand in/complete proteins, branched chain amino acids etc... but they exist in normal foods anyway, they haven't been invented by anyone. 

Anyway I'll exit now, my deep fried pizza is nearly ready. 

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Crazy concept I know, but I make food at home to take places, radical me! It'll never catch on. 

Buy a chicken, cook it, put meat in fridge for salads, sarnies etc.. anything. Even salads, amazingly you can buy whole pieces, not even ready chopped in bags, you cut it yourself according to how much you need. The rest keeps for days in the big magic white thing in the kitchen. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Bit of a stretch referring to bread as unprocessed, even if your chicken sandwich is on artisanal sourdough! 

In reply to Arms Cliff:

Fair point, I guess it's relative compared to mixing powders, but bread doesn't have to be the bleached white fluffy rubbish stuff. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Whey isn’t much more processed than the white (or light brown) powder that goes into the bread IMO, separated from the curds, pasteurised and dried. 

In reply to Arms Cliff:

Some breads maybe, but neat whey doesn't provide your body with anything else that it needs post training. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

In 2002 I started taking metrx meal replacement drink after being recommended it by several very strong climbers.I took this supplementation over about 8 years as I was vegetarian and on occasion during training and on road trips I felt unrecovered after a hard day.The effect was remarkable my recovery felt a lot better and as a side issue I don't think I got a cold/virus for about the same time which I found interesting as I was a health worker whose colleagues would be dropping like fly's.when a flu or otherwise was going around.I did read an explanation for this but can't validate this explanation as I don't remember the wider evidence.All I know here is what I experienced.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

If as a species we have reached a point where most of us cannot get all of our protein requirements from our diet we should probably ask ourselves what we are doing wrong.

In reply to ExiledScot:

The original poster was specifically about a plant-based protein source, I think that pretty much everyone knows that chicken is high in protein, it's not very vegan though.

If you know an easy transportable vegan snack with 40g of protein I'd love to hear about it.

In reply to Summit Else:

How about a bean based pasta salad?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Except that it would obviously be a terrible idea as anything other than a very short-term thing to do.  Apart from needing carbohydrates and fats for basic physiological requirements and gut microbiome health, consistently high levels of protein increase your cancer risk because raised levels of IGF-1, for example.

In reply to Summit Else:  and vegans

If you taken the decision to deprive yourself of a source of nutrition our bodies have evolved over a million years to require on a daily basis, then yeah fill your boots with processed and artificial supplements. 

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Indeed. Some athletes do need according to studies upto 1.5g/kg of body mass per day of protein, but there is also no evidence that going beyond this is beneficial and there are down sides.

Being a modest 80kg, that's 120 a day, split over 4-5 meals (better than 3 body wise), that's a max of 30g per meal, or roughly 100g of a protein source (fish, meat) etc.. less once you factor in smaller amounts of protein in everything else we eat, it's really not hard to reach a 100 plus with a normal healthy balanced diet.

Next people will me telling that the various red bull sponsored people really do drink that rubbish. 

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Any research proof that high protein intake increases chances of getting cancer?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

It's too much for the kidneys to process, more risk of disease, stones, needing to pee (in turn reduces hydration), if people use high fat sources of protein there are other problems with the liver and heart. There can be digestion and constipation problems too if the fibre or carb/protein ratio isn't balanced. We aren't designed for liquid diets! 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Again, as I asked Dave above, any actual proof, or research papers? Or is this just hearsay from the anti protein/supplement lot such as you?

In reply to ExiledScot:

Couldn't agree more! (For once)

In reply to timjones:

Beans only offer about 10g protein per 100g.  A pasta salad with 400g of beans in it is pretty... beany.

In reply to timjones:

Say, for example, you're basing such a salad around cannellini beans. A whole tin of Tesco cannellini beans provides only 17.4g of protein. So you'd need to eat more than 2 whole tins of cannellini beans - i.e. a pretty tedious 'snack' - to get just 40g of protein. Other beans such as kidney or butter are similar in protein content/100g.

Yes, beans and nuts are among the more protein-rich plant foods. But they are still relatively protein-poor compared to the most protein-rich animal products, and they can be low in some essential amino acids. Hence OP asked for suggestions for plant-based protein powders to add to their otherwise relatively healthy diet.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

One study I've read was from a group of approx 6,000 people in California. It did show a link between a high protein diet and an increased cancer risk (unless you're over 65...) Plant based protein was shown to improve the numbers compared to animal protein. 

(https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/diet-high-in-meat-proteins-raise...)

Obviously not much to do with supplementing to achieve a balanced diet, or a liquid vs solid diet either.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

How can selling yourself short on protein be a good thing?

In reply to timjones:

With mice it's been shown a low protein with high carbs diet resulted in longer life.

I heard those mice maxed out at VS 4c though so whether their longer life was worth it is a matter of debate.

In reply to Myr:

It is certainly likely to be more difficult to get your daily protein requirements on a plant based diet but is it wise to try and derive a large percentage of that daily requirement from a single meal?

In reply to Climbing Stew:

As Dave Mac has touched on several times in various videos, the problem at looking at people with high protein diets, particularly in the states, is that they are usually consuming this as burgers along with soda and fries! I think my favourite was the study that linked eggs with obesity until the fine details showed that the obese people were getting their egg volume in cakes 🤣

In reply to Climbing Stew:

You've obviously never seen a mouse climbing they are total beasts on steep walls

In reply to timjones:

Because there is a high incidence of a number of different cancers associated with a high protein diet. A starter for 10 here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216648/ 

Also very well worth listening to is this Podcast on the Zoe website:

https://zoe.com/learn/podcast-should-i-eat-more-protein 

 

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

It's long been known that there's a link between high protein diets (and, to some extent high calorie diets generally) and raised IGF-1 and other markers, and between raised IGF-1 and increased risk of a number of cancers.  It's one of the advantages of intermittent fasting that it not only drops blood glucose but also IGF-1.

Here's an interesting UK Biobank study suggesting that the source of the protein may be important, with high levels of dairy-derived protein being particularly linked to raised IGF-1

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8844108/

The intro gives a balanced view of what's known.

"Insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) is a peptide-hormone involved in regulating cell growth, differentiation, and proliferation [1]. Primarily produced in the liver under stimulation by growth hormone, IGF-I mainly acts by binding to the IGF-I receptor, found on the cell membranes in most tissues in the body [1]. In prospective cohort studies and Mendelian randomization studies, higher circulating IGF-I concentrations have been associated with higher risks of breast, colorectal, and prostate cancer [[2], [3], [4], [5], [6]]. In contrast, evidence from Mendelian randomization studies suggest that higher IGF-I concentrations are associated with greater bone mineral density and a lower risk of fractures [7]. Differing IGF-I concentrations arise from a combination of both non-modifiable and modifiable factors. Associations of modifiable factors with circulating IGF-I concentrations are not well understood and identifying modifiable factors for IGF-I concentrations may be important for cancer prevention.

Dietary intake has been suggested to influence circulating IGF-I [[8], [9], [10], [11]]. Evidence from small observational studies and randomized controlled trials have suggested that higher intake of protein [9,10,12,13] and dairy products [10], possibly due to their protein content [8], may increase IGF-I concentrations. However, the associations of circulating IGF-I concentrations with different sources of protein and other nutrients have not been well characterised in previous studies and have been limited by small sample sizes with the inability to look at sources of protein in detail [[8], [9], [10],[13], [14], [15]]."

As you might expect, it's complicated and, for some reason some dairy protein is particularly associated, but not cheese!  

It also seems both very low and high levels of IGF-1 are associated with increased mortality, at least in under-65s (over 65s gradually make less IGF-1 anyway):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8844108/

Anyway, I'm not saying that eating tin of tuna is the equivalent of smoking a cigarette, but, completely unsurprisingly, it turns out that eating an unbalanced diet with vastly more of one component than is remotely natural isn't entirely good for you (with the possible exception of seal blubber it seems...).  Actually, the more immediate problem with overdosing on protein is the effect it has on calcium excretion by the kidneys, as mentioned somewhere upthread.

In reply to Summit Else:

Nuts. Full of good fats and minerals as well as protein

In reply to Climbing Stew:

No details on what factors they controlled for, which suggests the answer is none. 

In reply to Sam Beaton:

You’d have to eat 200g of mixed nuts to get 40g of protein, coming in at a whacking 1200 kcal

In reply to Arms Cliff:

I would recommend listening to the podcast that I linked to above. Here it is again:

https://zoe.com/learn/podcast-should-i-eat-more-protein 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

presumably you want to increase muscle mass. This isn't desirable in climbing. You might really want to increase the utilisation of the muscles that you do have. That can dramatically improve your strength to weight ratio. You didn't say why you wanted extra protein but if it is to get stronger I suggest that you train clever and respond to your bodies demands as and when its needed. Even after an epic climbing session (twice this week) I find that I can meet my bodies demands by just eating a meal with lentils or eggs. 

In reply to GraB:

Is meeting your dietary requirements the same thing as a high protein diet?

Surely your requirements are the baseline, above that is high and below it is low, both of which can cause issues.

In reply to GraB:

Why, did I get my nut nutritional information wrong? 

In reply to timjones:

The figures for the RDA are based on experimental studies on a large population and cover the mean + 2 standard deviations. That is, 97.5% of the population. So 97.5% of people in the US will exceed their daily protein requirement by eating 0.8g protein/ kg body mass. As its based on a population, it includes all the varieties you'd expect to encounter in a population, such as metabolisms, different activity levels from sedentary to athletes etc etc.

But don't take my word for it, listen to the podcast.

In reply to Arms Cliff:

No, just that you don't need to be thinking about getting excessive amounts of protein into your diet, whether its from nuts, steak, eggs or (shudder) high protein shakes. Just eat a normal, varied diet and its enough... more likely it'll be very much more than enough. 

In reply to mutt:

 

Depends how much you have to start with surely? Of course body builder size isn’t ideal, but as someone who comically skinny growing up, I definitely wanted some more muscle mass to work with.

In reply to GraB:

I was replying to the post about getting 40g or protein from nuts, I don’t agree that the amounts of protein being discussed are excessive, and I’ve commented above on the issues with epidemiological studies based on diets. 

In reply to GraB:

I suggested that it was probably incorrect to say that most people could not meet their protein requirements from their diet alone.

It appears that your study agrees with that?

In reply to timjones:

You are correct. Most people can meet their requirements from diet alone. Furthermore, most people eat more calories than they need and so also more protein than they need. All from diet without any supplements. If you go digging for it, each Zoe podcast will have scientific peer reviewed references behind every podcast.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

This thread has successfully demonstrated the worst reasons to debate anything on the internet.

Of course protein supplements help with performance in sport - if they did not, professional athletes would not take them. So if people want to spend their money on them, and they feel that they work for them, great. 

But equally:

Unless you take your sport seriously enough, and assuming you eat a healthy diet, a lack of protein is probably not the bottleneck that's preventing your performance from improving.

FWIW I have dabbled with protein powders in the past, and found them to not make a blind bit of difference (that was apparent to me at least).

What made a difference was losing 10kg of weight, hanging off a fingerboard multiple times a week, and having the motivation to get up at 5am to go and shunt my current project for a couple hours before work.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Wyre Forest touched on Huel briefly, but looking about their full nutrition products cost no more than most protein shakes, are vegan and offer between 29 and 38g of protein plus 400 calories of full nutrition.

Several vegan sites back them. I'd recommend the Salted Caramel. Approx. £55 for 34 meals, assuming a 400 calorie portion. So approx. £1.60 per meal.

Note: That is meals, not a protein supplement.

If your work/lifestyle doesn't guarantee a standard lunchtime etc. they are a good consideration.

In reply to Fishmate:

Have you used Huel?

In reply to Climbing Stew:

Yes, for about the last three years. I briefly used the meal also until they ran out of the 'Spicy Mexican' (like a decent soup/broth). I then tried the green curry, however it became bland after a while.

I've used the shakes consistently, once a day, twice on occasion.

EDIT: I used the black version briefly but found 38g of protein too much for my needs. The white version has 29g. I tried most of the flavours and pretty much use the salted caramel.

In reply to GraB: I’ve been sucked into the wormhole that this simple request for some recommendations has become. Anyway, not seeking an answer from you but I suppose my question is, though most can meet their requirements through diet alone, do they? Who don’t and why don’t they? This article is a small study but shows an issue amongst the elderly in S Yorkshire https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/healthy-lifespan/news/more-half-older-people-do... It may well be mirrored elsewhere but that is conjecture. Approaching that demographic has added a bit of self interest😏. I’m also thinking about vegans and vegetarians and, on a more systemic scale, many who will be struggling due to the cost of living/low income. Probably a lot of young people as well from my albeit limited observations when working in schools. ps I will listen to the podcast.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

You don’t need to do this. The science says that a balanced diet provides enough protein for active people. It’s a waste of money, but the industry produces some excellent propaganda that says otherwise.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Worth a watch, It quite funny and seams honest

youtube.com/watch?v=GlNJyMU3QGo&

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

This is possibly already pointed out elsewhere in the thread but if you want to be sure and trigger an extra muscle synthesis cycle, you need to leave a sufficient time since the last meal containing sufficient protein to trigger one.

At most, you can trigger about 5 of these cycles a day, which is why body builders and power athletes will space out 5 meals from first thing in the morning to last thing at night. 

If you're fasting till 2pm, your mid afternoon protein will likely be metabolised for fuel or passed out as waste, as your body will not be ready to start another cycle.

In reply to Summit Else:

Oatcakes and humous would get you a good way towards it. 

In reply to Fishmate:

I presume they are talking about the USA, where the FDA does not regulate food supplements.

In the UK, protein supplements are covered by both food safety laws, and a number of supplement specific regulations as well.

Of course, there's plenty of things that comply with all of our food standards that I still wouldn't want to put in my body, and the FDA is happy to approve some awful things.

In reply to girlymonkey:

You'd need to eat 2 whole pots of houmous and 15 oatcakes to get 40g of protein.

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Hey, I don't know anything about you, your health metrics, exercise regime or lifestyle and I'm keen to answer a question you didn't ask and tell you why you're wrong/right to ask it, so here goes.

You do/don't need, (delete as applicable), supplements if you follow [insert diet type here] that I know is the Nirvana. Yeah I'm not a doctor or nutrition specialist, but I've read the internet, so I know. HTH ;⁠-⁠)

(PS, I use the PhD Nutrition Diet Plant, but don't tell anyone as I'll get cancelled by the anti-protein militia!)

In reply to jezb1:

Lattice climbing suggest based on research data from 2000 V5+ climbers that what is needed is the ability to hang 1.33 times your body weight. thats just forearm stength but I'd not be surprised if that carried through to all muscles. Even a skinny lad can acheive that (I know as I am one of those). Trad might be slightly different but then raw power is less useful in trad. Stamina is easier to achieve. None of this requires beefing up - upping your body weight only makes achieving 1.33x harder. 

Infact having just been to the gym I just watch my PT only just acheive a pull up with just 10kg extra. I'm 30kg lighter than him and I did 5x5 + 10kg. 

just saying ..... 

In reply to mutt:

1.33 x body weight needed to achieve what?

In reply to SDM:

I agree, however I'm unsure of the restrictions on products imported from the U.S., which many of them are. That was my thinking regarding a previous comment.

Do you have any take on that?

In reply to jezb1:

Being a V5+ boulderer. That might not be your aim but it's a solid measure of strength required for hard moves. There is a misconception in society that you need lots of protein. It's not true and mostly a meat industry trope.. effort make you strong not food 

In reply to mutt:

Ah got you. Most people training seriously are probably harbouring aspirations above V5. It’s certainly a useful bit of data but I don’t think it equates to hard moves in the whole scheme of things.

Looking at my diet some years ago, including protein intake, was a game changer for me. 

Effort plus nutrition, sleep etc is what makes you “strong”.

In reply to mutt:

Define strong, it's like saying someone has a high level fitness, fit for what, it's all relative. 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo: A further twist for most working people is that they train in the evening - if I'd trained till 9.30 I want some protein ,and I want to get to bed post haste, so eating a protein rich meal isn't a particularly attractive plan. A supplement is a bit easier to get down.  It stops me being so sore the next day(s).

In an ideal world I wouldn't train that late, and I definitely prefer not to, and I'd rather get my protein from my balanced diet.  But I don't live in an ideal world

In reply to mutt:

It's a 'big beef' conspiracy.

Joking aside, some people are properly obsessed with it and it's become a big industry.

In reply to mutt:

Isn't the easiest way to do that to weigh less, not more?  Certainly my power to weight ratio has never been better than when I was skinny teenager.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

That was how it worked back in the 80s. Didn't the hard climbers get called Broccoli Boys? I would struggle to get back down to 56kgs so I've focused on gaining strength. It's quite pleasant when one is in the groove. Eating protein supplements is a last resort when we have run out of eggs, brown rice and nuts. 

In reply to mutt:

No skinny lad here but I'm three years into climbing at 55 and can only just hang bodyweight. I can manage a set of 7 pull ups. I'm 75kg. Trying to get to 1.33x body weight would be a dream.

I feel a bit insulted to be told my dream should be piss easy..

In reply to timparkin:

I didn't say it was easy- refer back to my post about having to put effort into training. It will take about a year to add 33% body mass to your hangs at a guess. Keep at it and the rewards will come. But its not easy by anyones measure. Personally I find it harder to add weight to my max pull ups, but I definately won't be putting that down to my age or my protein intake. 

In reply to jezb1:

Realistic for the majority though, and yes, the majority of people who take supplements do so because they are after a mythical magic bullet that will make them healthier/stronger/faster etc...

They won't.

Science judges you - the majority of supplements for the majority of people, are a waste of time. That's the scientific consensus.

In reply to mutt:

The data doesn't show that 'what is needed is the ability to hang 1.33 x weight', it showed that the average weighted hang achieved by V5+ climbers was 1.33 x body weight.
Those two things really aren't the same at all.

In reply to fotoVUE:

.

But who’s the majority? 

My mum won’t benefit, it’d be pointless.

I benefit because my protein intake is low without supplementing. Could I sort that through eating differently? Yes of course, but I’m 42 and know my eating habits and issues with food.

People often say supplement users are looking for a “magic bullet”. This is isn’t the case for people I know who use supplements, we use them as… a supplement.
 

In reply to Summit Else:

do you think that really are you just being a pedant. for me, if the 2000 admittedly self selected v5 climbers share an ability to hang 1.33 x their body weight then I might also find that doing some actual excercise and continue doing it then I might also be successful. Sure if other factors prevent that then v5 isn't going to be achieved. But for climbers ....... surely lattices measurements are relevant.

But feel free to continue as you see fit.

In reply to jezb1:

And with a lot of new research and breakthroughs in diet and nutrition, that is worth looking at.

Our diet as you will know is influenced by our environment, food availability and upbringing - much to the detriment of our health. These are the reasons why many in the UK have a shit healthspan and why the NHS is under so much strain. I changed my diet 4-years ago based on a lot of what Zoe is talking about and others. The results were transforming and I'm 62.

I'll repeat what others have linked to above, their podcasts are brilliant too: https://zoe.com/

In reply to mutt:

That's just unscientific.  Suppose the same survey had asked the climbers how many protein shakes they had each day, and the average came out at, say, 1.6.  It would be silly to take from that the idea that 'what is required to climb V5+ is to drink 1.6 protein shakes a day'.

People who fail to understand the difference between correlation and causation invariably die.

In reply to Summit Else:

Or climb worse?

Given that most climbers drive an Octavia will swapping my Kia for one improve my grade?

In reply to ExiledScot: definitely, was in a slump going on 62, lots of injuries, tired. Struggling on routes. Got the Octavia last Christmas, now a new man and back to redpointing the same grade as when I was 50🤣 But make sure it’s at least the 1.5 engine, more power you see. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

I think you've got somthing there....  I've climbed my best grades in sport trad and bouldering in the last couple of years coinciding exactly with upgrading from a Ford focus to an Octavia. 

100% stone cold science! If only I could hang 1.33 bodyweight...

In reply to ebdon:

That's two of you, 2 out of 2, so owning an Octavia improves your climbing grade in 100% of cases. It's pretty clear what type of taxi across Austria the Climb GB team needed, no wonder they didn't want to hire a team minibus. 

In reply to Summit Else:

Correlation is good enought for me. And yes of course I can see the difference. If you want to get hung up on scientific perfection then feel free to ignore. I will continue my max hang which currently scores 1.5 times body weight and take the benefits of correlation approximating good sense.

In reply to mutt:

Sorry to hijack - I'd not heard the 1.33 for V5+ thing before and am intrigued - is that half crimp on 20mm edge as a standard?

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Having skimmed through this thread I think high protein popcorn is the future.

In reply to fotoVUE:

It isn't quite what science says. It says for untrained people who are now training, the 1RM consistently increases more than a control group. 

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/52/6/376

This meta analysis looks at 22 papers which include the untrained and only 1 study showed no effect.. 

Tim

p.s. If your point is that you can do the same without supplements, yes you can. However, if you're under 1.6g/kg even whilst eating a healthy diet, supplements might be a good way to bring your intake up to 1.6g/kg.

In reply to Exile:

"Max hang strength (7 sec hangs on 20mm edge {Beastmaker 1000 bottom outer edge})"

In reply to timparkin:

We all put a massive faith in those manufacturing supplements, whether they be protein powders, or others. They are unregulated, you cannot trust them. They make false claims, and you cannot trust what they mix in their supplements (numerous studies showing fillers and even lead in some). Protein supplements are highly processed.  The benefit of eating actual food (not highly processed) is that there are other benefits, some documented, some not. It's the whole body system you ought to be feeding, not just muscle mass.

Do not trust supplement manufacturers

Earlier this year, a nonprofit group called the Clean Label Project released a report about toxins in protein powders. Researchers screened 134 products for 130 types of toxins and found that many protein powders contained heavy metals (lead, arsenic, cadmium, and mercury), bisphenol-A (BPA, which is used to make plastic), pesticides, or other contaminants with links to cancer and other health conditions. Some toxins were present in significant quantities. For example, one protein powder contained 25 times the allowed limit of BPA.

https://cleanlabelproject.org/protein-powder-white-paper/

In reply to fotoVUE:

We all know that eating a balanced diet of unprocessed food is better for us but then there’s the real world...  

We can’t all afford to eat what we’d like, all of the time.  Then there are those of us that are time poor and have limited time for cooking and food prep.  And there are those of us that can only go with the limited choice in the work canteen, or have to go with what the rest of the family want.

And then there are people like me that like the taste of protein powder, mixed with natural yoghurt, or with milk as a milkshake.

In reply to afx22:

If you're mixing protein powder with a source of protein, you're almost certainly digesting more than your body can utilise at any given time, putting pressure on your kidneys which has the potential to be quite serious long term. I directly wouldn't trust doctor google, but research yourself what excess protein can do to you and search out the credible sources of info. 

In reply to afx22:

Yes, it can be difficult eating a healthy diet that is actually good for you with a diverse range of foods that is recommended.

It is however, all in the planning. Planning will save you time and money, and keep you healthy.

The planning you do once: I do it on a spreadsheet, filling in several variations of meals that I repeat every two weeks. Then a list of ingredients and I compare prices (I frequent Asian supermarkets) . Then some batch cooking on a Sunday morning: biome broth - beans and stuff, a soup, replenish my overnight organic oat mix (oats, bran, 10 different types of seeds, mixed organic nuts - eaten with yogurt, an apple and black cherries and oat milk at 10am, the start of my 8 hour eating window), start any new ferments if I'm low. 

In reply to Whoopdeedoo:

Watched a great video from the Zoe nutrition research group on high protein diets. The upshot was that virtually no one in the developed world is protein deficient. High levels of excess ingested protein are just converted by the body into carbohydrates and the then used to produce energy. So basically you might as well save your money and have a bowl of porridge instead.

In reply to Exile:

I'd not heard it either and frankly it sounds rubbish (either that or I have considerably better technique than I thought making up for shite finger strength). Not being able to hang 1.33 certainly hasn't held me back from climbing harder than V5.

As an older climber, full time worker and father - who throughout their whole life has struggled to put on any kind of muscle I've made use of protein shakes as an easy and cheap way of ensuring I get what I need.

the thing is - we are all different, and many people don't need a supplement, others do

anyway.. to answer the question I like:

  PE Nutrition Performance Plant Protein Vanilla

tastes good, cheap, I have it as a milkshake or with pancakes for breakfast.

and if you need to put on muscle I'd recommend body building forums for advice, they seem to have got it figured out

In reply to Root1:

That conclusion doesn’t seem entirely consistent with one of Zoe’s own articles: https://zoe.com/learn/should-you-worry-about-protein-deficiency which also considers serious athletes and the elderly.

One of the references cited in the Zoe article above is this one https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/4/829/htm#B1-nutrients-11-00829 which is more equivocal about the benefits of higher protein levels for athletes.

I’ve used protein supplements in the past and my own anecdotal evidence is that it didn’t seem to make any difference in terms of muscle or strength gains but I do wonder whether it might have helped with regards to recovery and injury prevention.

In response to the OP, I went with unflavoured whey protein. I got sick of all the flavoured ones very quickly.

In reply to struds:

6.1. Key Points

Due to increasing health awareness and consumers’ easy access, the fastest-growing consumer groups for sport supplement products are recreational and lifestyle users.

Over-consumption of dietary protein may have harmful effects on human metabolism and gut comfort, especially in combination with otherwise unbalanced or restrictive diets.

The gut microbiota and its metabolism vary according to ethnic background, age, diet, exercise routines, geographical habitat, and individual physiological features of the host, and affect the individual’s metabolic response to dietary protein and amino acid intake.

While studies on athletes have shown that protein and amino acid supplements may increase MPS and reduce fatigue, muscle soreness and low-to-moderate exercise-induced damage, current studies showing clear negative effects associated with high-protein diets or, e.g. BCAA supplements, are mainly reported in subjects with some type of metabolic disturbances.

In addition to protein quality and quantity, people must pay attention to other components of their diet and maintain normal weight and physical activity to ensure the supply of essential amino acids while indulging their versatile microflora and limiting the production of potentially harmful fermentation products.

In reply to fotoVUE:

good to know

In reply to fotoVUE:

In the US I would agree as they aren't graded as food by the FDA (but I'd probably agree for much of the food that is FDA approved). 

In the UK and Europe they have to be graded as food and are tested by multiple regulatory bodies. 

In reply to fotoVUE:

I measured by protein intake and I was about 20-30% lower than 1.7g/kg . Unless I increase my portion size by 20-30% (which would probably mean 40% bigger main meal) or I start eating extra food outside those meals and try to keep them calorie neutral, which seems tough to me unless I start cooking meat to eat outside of mealtimes, then a protein supplement is the only alternative unless I change my diet and I don't particularly want to do that as I eat with my wife (who is a food scientist and manages a healthy diet for us which isn't meat heavy). 

So without having a disruptive and anti-social change in diet, the occasional high quality protein supplement seems cost and time effective alternative. 

Out of interest, where does your 1.7g/kg come from in your diet?

Tim

In reply to timparkin:

Mainly from beans, grains, nuts, fish, occasional local meat (venison fav) - I find that beetroot kvass (nitric oxide) does more for my climbing performance (and gut health) than anything else! That and starting yoga a year ago! Beans are my favourite though, and all that fibre!

I wouldn't trust any regulatory body in the UK.

Interesting vlog - Everything You Thought You Knew About Protein Is Wrong | Stanford's Professor Christopher Gardner: youtube.com/watch?v=DMwf_9wqWY0&

In reply to fotoVUE:

In which case food and supplements are equally risky

He's so obviously wrong though. For one his 'anecdotal' research about consumption is based on US averages and personally I'm as far from US averages as you can imagine. Secondly he says excess protein gets converted to fat. Radioactive tracers show this isn't true unless there aren't enough calories in your diet available video carbs etc. (plus lots of research on over eating proteins elsewhere). 

His other comments about protein in his own research (different levels of protein and training) means that people live OK with less protein - but it doesn't mention anything about hypertrophy and protein intake. 

I realise he's a professor of nutrition but he doesn't do any research on protein and hypertrophy etc. His comments about protein seem to be mostly about levels of consumption vs RDA. If I lived in the US and had an average US diet, I would obviously be eating enough protein but I don't and I don't so I'm not sure how his comments are appropriate for everybody.

If he's the scientific advisor for Zoe, why are Zoe promoting 1.6 gto 1.8g of protein per kg on their own recommendations pages. 

https://zoe.com/learn/eating-after-exercise-nutritionist-advice

Also, if I'm only eating in a 5 hour window a day (and fasting fully for a couple of days a week). I can't absorb enough protein (20-30g per 6hr window) in that window. Hence to get up to an RDA level means eating more protein across the day. 

Perhaps for me I should change my diet completely, but it works for me so I don't want to do that. 

 

In reply to fotoVUE:

Based on what?

In reply to Dave Garnett:

underfunding, politics, their history, lack of oversight, lack of enforcement....

Most food sold in supermarkets should have a health warning like cigarettes

In reply to timparkin:

I wouldn't get too hung up on 1.6g/kg, Tim. There are so many other factors to consider.

Yes, that's it, if it works for you. It's very individual. It's just that the whole supplement industry is run by snake oil salesman, whether that's protein supplements or other supplements.

I forgot eggs in the above, it's nearly 10am and I can eat!

I did have my coffee (fresh ground) earlier, and my primordial soup™: miso, marmite, sriracha, ground pepper, two turmeric roots grated - water at less than 60C.

In reply to fotoVUE:

Ah ok, as long as it isn't unreasoned prejudice.

In reply to fotoVUE:

I can't tell if this is satire or not :/...

To fuel the protein debate I listened to Will Bosi's jam crack the other day, and he seems to exist, like any good Scot, solely on oatcakes, pasta, and bagged parmesan.  Yet somehow manages to not be crap at climbing.

In light of this one anecdote, the protein neuroses on evidence in this thread are freaking hilarious. 

The wellness/fitness industry is constantly trying to convince us that we need their products to be our optimum selves, "live our best lives" (whatever that means), achieve our goals, and all that.

I'm gonna cast my vote solidly into the "it's mostly bs to get us to part with our money" camp.

In reply to grectangle:

I kind of agree, it is marketing bull. Protein is the latest fashion food, 25 years ago it was all carbo loading and we were suckered in to drinking something akin to wall paper paste.

Having said that, I have never gained muscle easily and did notice a difference recently when I upped my protein intake using shakes. Those with the genetic to build and hold muscle may see greater returns.

In summary, does it work, maybe. Is it overhyped, almost certainly.

In reply to grectangle:

Imagine how hard he could climb if he got on Mick’s primordial soup diet!

In reply to struds:

I appreciate that's humorous but surely body builders basically build muscle for no other purpose. It would seem better to get advice from sport forums where the muscle is actually useful eg gymnastics.

I'm totally lost by all the conflicting advice, much of it seeminly based on opinionated papers etc often misinterpreted.

Incidentally it seems the complementary protein argument where proteins in a diet might not much use if an essential amino acid is missing, eg in some totally legume food, is now considered of little importance. It hasn't been directly mentioned in this thread (but may be implied by "balanced" diet).

In reply to oldie:

There are free apps like Cronometer that track what you've eaten and give totals for protein etc, they also give a breakdown of amino acids such as Leucine. Could be handy if you're thinking of looking at nutrition.

In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

I agree with the above. However we are not talking about large increases in protein in the diet, and again any excess will be converted to carbohydrates and burnt for energy. Since people in the western world consume far more protein than they need, then  as long as they are healthy and not super athletes they will not need protein supplements even if they are gym bunnies.