UKC

Has anyone ever been to El Chorro for the weekend (from the UK)? Can you fit in a decent amount of climbing?

I just thought, if I'm considering a 6 hour drive to Scotland, why am I not considering sunny spain...

In reply to vizik:

Why indeed not? If you're 'only' 6 hours drive away ...

In reply to vizik:

If you fly after work on Friday and hire a car in Malaga, you can get a full day on Saturday and a decent climb on Sunday; it's only an hour to the airport for your flight back.

I did it in the past, I wouldn't do it now though, it's not sustainable.

In reply to vizik: in the past I’ve  both skied and bolt clipped for short trips only once for two  nights to calpe but quiet a few times for three . Would I so do now ? Probably not . Would I tell you that you shouldn’t ? Definitely not .is right that  I’ve had my fun and lived that life and now I should tell you shouldn’t ? No . That’s up to you . You carbon footprint could well be way way smaller than mine ( it most probably is ) and all of the above dislikers . Of course you should think about it but only you can decide on the balance that sits well with you 

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In reply to vizik:

Success will depend on flight times, flight reliability and the queue for hire cars.

If you can fly Friday after work and return Sunday evening, the you are in with a chance. Remember you need to allow for the 2hr compulsory airport shopping experience at either end in this.

Check the reliability of proposed flights online. Arriving in Spain delayed when the airport is shut and your car hire contract voided is no fun. I got bitten by a Barcelona flight this way once and have since learned that the flight is notoriously unreliable, usually 4hours late. This is easily checked.

Take care with car hire, the cheapest outfits tend to have the longest queues, waiting 2hrs for your car will be tedious. "Walk in" rentals tend to have a separate queue but are obviously more pricey as you pay rack rate. Also consider buying their insurance, this will reduce faff time on your return. This might double the cost compared with internet prices but as it is just for 2 days the cash delta will likely be tolerable. Travelling hand luggage only will keep you a step ahead of the crowd getting off the plane.

I am yet to do a weekend trip but have done long weekends which worked out well. El chorro is a good choice for a weekend but it will require careful planning and a bit of luck. Please report back if you do do it, lots will be interested to hear how you get on.

I fully understand your thinking around the driving/flying question.

Good Luck.

In reply to vizik:

Would you go if you couldn't tell anyone?

In reply to Ciro:

It’s not too sustainable no, but once a year won’t hurt. There’s others doing far worse - I already have a low carbon footprint and have dedicated my career to the environment.

In reply to Phil1919:

If I was going to tell people, I’d be going to Yosemite 

In reply to vizik:

Obviously it is possible, but you would need flight times both there and back to suit.
Travel to the Airport an 1hour, 2 hours at the Airport, 3.5 Hours to Malaga, Grab Luggage and Pick up Hire Car 1.5 hours, 1 hour to El Chorro, 9 hours running smooth.
On the return add an hour for refuelling and returning car, so 10 hours.

Get up day one, 8 hours climbing, sounds like work to me, but feasible.

Day 2, you need to be back at the Airport, but with an early start, 5 hours climbing.

So 19 hours travel for 13 hours climbing, sounds no fun to me.

In reply to Godwin:

Fair comment but I think the times could be shaved a little.

Travel hand luggage only and pay for fast track through security could reduce airport time to 1hr.

Choosing meet and greet car hire reduces arrival time.

Using car hirers insurance reduces drop off time, refuelling is a matter of minutes.

This brings the travel to climbing times closer to parity. 

A weekend looks feasible but a long weekend would be preferable.

We are comparing apples with oranges though. A Scottish weekend at this time of year often holds similar time pressures, a route on Saturday and maybe a shorter one on the Sunday if lucky. 6 hours return drive after 2 days out can be pretty dangerous. You don't have to pilot the plane home from Spain

In reply to vizik:

You've have told loads of people already.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

But taking a rope and climbing hardware as hand luggage may give some problems - weight/size/security.

6 hours return from Scotland - depends on where you've been / returning to. Penrith to Arrochar area can be pretty rapid, Brighton to Torridon less so. But as you mentioned being Lakes based, Penrith is closer to the mark and not a 6 hour trip.

Travel to/from Spain will likely be longer time wise. An hour to the airport followed by all the airport faff, about 3 hours of flight (Malaga to Manchester) followed by more airport faff, then a 1.5/2 hour drive home that will be in the dark if you've been climbing all day in Spain.

Go to El Chorro by all means, but try to go for a bit longer, it'll almost certainly be a better trip that way. 

In reply to vizik:

If you’re going to make a very short trip work, then maybe try somewhere else. Barcelona is a shorter flight than Malaga and Siurana is only an hour and a half away. The airport there is huge and has lots of efficient car hire places. Otherwise wait a little bit and go to the south of France, there is a lot of climbing within an hour’s drive of Marseilles including Buoux which is very good and totally unfashionable. 
 

Personally I’d only do this with three days minimum, and I can be through security at Heathrow an hour after leaving my house. 

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

FTFY. And for most airlines, you can check in 60 min before. Or online, and without checked luggage you can turn up as close to your flight as you deem fit.

In reply to ianstevens:

Taking climbing kit in the cabin is a high risk strategy, and I am surprised to see travelling with just cabin baggage being mention in this thread more than once. For the last couple of years as I have passed through security I have asked the people in charge in the security office, both UK side and in Europe, if I can take,

• Climbing Rope.
• Carabiners.
• Trekking poles.

as cabin baggage, and it has been a consistent, No.

In reply to Godwin:

Oh I wouldn't recommend it at all. Neither would I recommend flying for a weekend of cragging. Simply fact checking the 'two hours in the airport' thing.

In reply to vizik:

I went for a short trip in 2019. Manchester Airport,,early morning flight, climbing by 2.Then 3 days climbing and back home on a late flight that day .Last day was one of those multi pitch routes, all very enjoyable, in the witches bar by 2 ish and then drove to the airport.

Would I do it for a weekend...... no. One full days climbing, just not worth the faff of the risk of something going pearshaped at the airport on the way out and then blowing the whole schedule up.( and you would be so frustrated as you would still have to go through the motions)  Flight back is irrelevant, you can run with delays there.

In reply to Godwin:

Trekking poles will usually be allowed if you are limping and leaning on them heavily when you approach security.

In reply to vizik:

I'd like to front this by saying I respect you and your autonomy as a person. Please don't take this personally. I love climbing and travelling and I'm sure you feel the same. 

I find it bizarre that anyone would consider flying to Spain for a weekend of sport climbing. If you can afford the cost then you can also afford to figure out a way to get enough time together to make it an actually worthwhile trip? 

In the last 6 years I've managed to climb all over from Andalucia to Lofoten without taking a single flight. It's mostly not necessary within western Europe and IMO anyone who thinks it is justifiable to fly to another country for a weekend to go sport climbing is unbelievably blinkered. You're also pissing a load of money away on flights and rental for two days when you could be slightly more organised and get at least a week in. 

I'm blown away by the tolerance for this kind of behaviour on this thread tbh. It's one thing taking necessary flights to USA etc or planning a trip of reasonable length, but weekending around Europe is a joke. I also don't care what people 'used to do' because clearly the goal posts have moved and we know better. 

IMO 'dedicating your career to the environment' and flying to Spain for a weekend are incompatible and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. 

TLDR; Scotland is the one. 

In reply to MischaHY:

It's always worth throwing these ideas around. Scottish trips are notoriously fickle, you may choose Scotland over Spain but the probability of failure is higher. I am setting the bar high here, probability of achieving plan A. A weekend in Spain is barely viable but so is a Scottish weekend for the majority of the country. Longer trips are clearly preferable for both. Personally, I have parked Scotland until I have retired and have the time and flexibility to make the most of it.

Whilst working and relatively time poor/cash rich, a long weekend in Spain or similar makes more sense. Much greater chance of success. 

I'm not sure the cost difference is that great if wear and tear in your vehicle is considered.

Not everyone places environmental concerns at the top of their list. High horsing from a privileged position of having the time to use alternative transport methods is all well and good but impractical for the wage slaves that most of us are.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Maybe it's time to put environmental concerns up  there. Maybe winter weekends in Spain clipping bolts is a privileged position that most of this and certainly previous generations could not attain.

I thought this thread was started by a troll, but clearly not.

In reply to leland stamper:

That is a different discussion. The op asked about the feasibility, not the politics.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Basically it's just an uninspiring question dreamt up on a wet windy 'winters' day.

In reply to vizik:

I feel personally attacked by this

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

I’ve been working 32-40 hours on outdoor industry wages for the last 6 years whilst doing all of this so the excuse isn’t valid unfortunately. I put very very little effort into not flying because it’s really easy. 
 

There’s no high horse here, flying to Spain for a weekend is taking the piss when island countries are looking at catastrophic climate consequences, amongst a vast range of other issues. Considering we’re talking about Scottish winter (presumably, considering Chorro averages 35-40 degrees when Scottish rock is in reasonable shape), by the time you retire it’ll be f***ed anyway thanks to climate not being a priority. 
 

I’m really not being a dick and I’m as psyched as the rest but we need to stop living in a dream world where flying to Spain for a weekend is even on the menu. 

In reply to MischaHY:

Again, the op was can I rather than should I.

I checked your profile, if it is up to date, it is a hell of a lot easier for you to get around Europe by other means.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Can includes should. I can abseil on 2mm dyneema cord, but I definitely shouldn’t. 

And I don’t fly to Scotland for winter climbing.  

See how ridiculous that sounds? 
 

I have nothing against flying to Spain from UK for a decent period of time. It’s the short time which is the ridiculous part. 

In reply to Phil1919:

Maybe it is my position on the spectrum shining through but I find this sort of optioneering exercise quite invigorating.

Outside of the feasibility study, my personal opinion on this is as follows:

In general, a trip is not worth it if more time is spent travelling than climbing. This applies equally to evening climbing, days out, weekends away, climbing wall trips etc. there are exceptions to this, lifetime ambition routes or when the journey is part of the enjoyment, a classic train journey or motorbike tour for example.

The way my life has progressed, I flew very rarely until in my 40s and have never flown long haul. I call this my offsetting period. I was offsetting before it was fashionable when fuels were dirtier, engines less efficient and taxes lower. I hold little guilt about air travel in my later years. This view will likely prove unpopular here on UKC but evidence from trips abroad suggests that climbers happily say one thing then do the other.

In reply to vizik:

I went to El Chorro for 4 days for arrived 10am Friday, went to Valle de Abdalajis for the day to get used to the rock. 2nd Day did Rogelio, El chorro 280m Multipitch, 3rd day back at El Chorro for full day on the rock doing single pitches,  4th day warm down back at Valle de Abdalajis... hire cars are cheap but avoid Delpaso at all costs.  I stayed in Alora for £30 a night, car hire £25 for medium size car and fuel £28 for the full 4 days.. Alora has good supermarkets.. honestly highly recommended and planning my next trip.. I was lucky as the airport is 10 mins from my house so it is quicker to travel to Spain than the far north of Scotland.. if you want more info let me know.  

In reply to MischaHY:

 > I’m really not being a dick

How have you been getting all these places then? Because if you've been driving all over Europe and think that's somehow loads better, you really are.

https://uk-cms.parkindigo.com/wp-content/uploads/CO2-Emissions-9.png 

In reply to MischaHY:

So a weekend trip has a bigger carbon footprint than a week's trip to Spain?

I would have thought the frequency of one's trips flying to Spain would be more relevant.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

That chart, whilst a useful starting point, looks to be a measure of emissions at point of use rather than total emissions over the lifetime of the mode of transport. It is likely also based on the various modes of transport being at capacity, which is often not the case. 

In reply to Mark Eddy:

It isn't. Well done for ignoring the 'sources' link at the bottom and making stuff up instead.

In reply to Mark Eddy:

I've just done a bit of googling and a vehicle (very roughly) only breaks even with flying if you have two people in it, so I think the chart must be for single occupancy vehicles but fullish planes. Seems driving to Spain alone (as I have just done!) is definitely worse than flying.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Wish more people would

The most succinct way I've managed to explain this is that your seat on the most modern planes will get 120-140 mpg, so that's what you need to beat by car sharing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Medium-haul_flights

You don't need to 'think' this. Sources are cited.

Yes, it is. 

Flying isn't the problem; going a really long way is the problem. How you do it is almost in the noise, but we've been conditioned that "plane bad" and don't want to hear that dirtbagging around solo in a big van is way worse. This is another UKC hill I will die on.

To the OP: can you really be arsed with all the faff of getting to the airport, packing for security, dodgy car hire places, Spanish roads, shyster car rental return, queuing for passport control, getting back from the airport and being utterly knackered on the Monday for a day and a half (if everything goes smoothly) of climbing? If you can, all I can say is I admire your dedication.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

An informative link there, thanks. I am heartened to see that the increase in fuel efficiency makes my "early offsetting" twice as effective than the modern day.

I am a leader of fashion and twice as good, go me!

To counter your final paragraph. Can you really be arsed driving after a week's work for 6hrs in dark, foul weather conditions on congested Scottish roads, frustrated by hgvs and caravans. Adopting a significant risk that the weather or conditions will make your objective unachievable.Suffering shite food and bad beer. Putting yourself at significant risk on another long, poor journey home to arrive knackered for work on the Monday for one and a half day's (if everything goes smoothly and the weather plays ball) climbing. If you can, all I can say is I admire your dedication.

To the OP. The thread did reasonably well until derailed, hopefully you can sift through the opinion and make an evidence based decision.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You know what, screw it, let's do some maths. This is always popular.... 😐

Scotland 

Manchester to Fort William is about 6 hours, so let's go with that as our driving example. Doesn't matter really where but that's 515km, so at 200g/km co2e, I make that 103kg CO2 one way, so 206 kg round trip if travelling solo.

El Chorro

Searching man-agp flights, Google says "Carbon emissions estimate: 101 kg" for one way on the first flight I happened to click on. Add about 13 kg each way for the drive up from Málaga for about 228 kg total. 

Someone please check my maths. Everyone else, the high horses can take a rest this weekend.

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

Me? Hells no. I wouldn't do either. Not sure which is worse.

👍

In reply to vizik:

There were 19 private jets parked up at Dubai airport for Cop 28 and that's not including all the other idiots spending time there.

Mate, if you want to fly to Chorro for a long weekend , it's definitely not you taking the piss. Just go.

E

In reply to Enty:

As long as it’s not raining that weekend in el chorro……lol

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Nah this all makes sense, I’m talking about combining the carbon debt with a useful timeframe. Nobody is gonna drive/take the train to Spain multiple times a year and if they do they’ll stay for a while because it takes ages. However somebody could feasibly execute the weekend quick hit multiple times in a year. What I’m encouraging is making good use of the emissions by investing more time which in turn makes it far less likely to be happening multiple times a year. 

It’s not about some ‘holier than thou’ attitude it’s just about making good use of time considering the journey impact and I think it’s fair enough to say a weekend is not worth the cost. If someone invests a couple weeks then it is better because they get more out of it and are far less likely to repeat it many times in a short timeframe. 

Also makes for a way better trip! 
 

P.s. it’s a fair point to say 12hrs round trip to Scotland falls under the same bracket of ‘not worth it’. 
 

In reply to Enty:

Went to Vue Cinema in Accrington to see Aquaman yesterday, such bollocks we laughed out loud, but great fun
However the plot is about a villain destroying the world with Orichalcum, and extreme weather events happening all over the world and it was pretty easy to see an underlying message in the escapist tripe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaman_and_the_Lost_Kingdom. I do not expect the King of Atlantis to have a fight with the Dark lord wielding tridents in Accrington Arndale anytime soon, but a house in Greater Manchester did have its roof ripped off by a Tornado the other day, which is a tad out of the ordinary, but as they say, weather is not climate.

So, yes they are taking the piss, we are taking the piss, everyone is taking the piss, but as Celine Dion says, its getting serious,  youtube.com/watch?v=ql1QIqS_pq0& , so maybe Think Twice about our trips.

In reply to MischaHY:

So, if, say, you lived just down the road from Gatwick airport, the wrong side of London from everything, no decent weekend climbing trip is ever going to be worth it? Probably not - I think I would lose the will to live pretty quickly......

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Interesting. I hadn't realised driving alone produces more CO2 than an economy flight. However, I always thought flying was more damaging because of the non CO2 emissions which are released high into the atmosphere. From the BBC

"The climate effect of non-CO2 emissions from aviation is much greater than the equivalent from other modes of transport, as these non-CO2 greenhouse gases formed at higher altitudes persist for longer than at the surface and also have a stronger warming potential," Eloise Marais, from the Atmospheric Composition Group, at the University of Leicester, told BBC News

In reply to duncan b:

Jury's out on quantifying that though, and it would have to be at the very top end of the spread of estimates to swing the contest.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Not making anything up, just assuming. I hadn't checked the links, but have just tried opening them and they don't work, or at least not on my Mac. Is there mention somewhere of full aircraft / full vehicle, did I miss it?

As you'll no doubt know, Co2 is only 1 amongst many greenhouse gases we are emitting. I'm not claiming to know all the emissions data for a large passenger aircraft, but I do find it very hard to believe air travel is less harmful than land-based travel. Just had a look through the Wiki link you mention, it does show land travel as being vastly more economical. It's the way forward...

And as has been mentioned by another poster, air travel does make the weekend break an option and for many this would be a multiple times a year trip. Whereas if travelling overland, train/car, to Southern Europe, the time and expense in getting there is far greater, so much more likely a longer trip will be planned, a better trip enjoyed, and less Co2 emissions overall.

Anyways, good that these discussions are happening more often these days

In reply to Mark Eddy:

Unfortunately 'belief' is not a good basis for engineering judgement. Data is king.

I don't actually know what the data says in details, but I'd point out that an aircraft moves about 100 times as many people about 10 times quicker then a car, so the car engine need to at least 1000 times as efficient (in CO2/time terms) as the aircraft engines to best it on green credentials. Is that reasonable? I don't know - I wouldn't bet either way.

Of course, the best thing to do - from an environmental perspective - is not to travel at all and that's where air travel could be considered 'guilty': It has simply made long distance travel too convenient. Far fewer people would go traipsing round the world if they had to drive rather than fly. But that's a different argument.

In reply to Mark Eddy

Well I have just arrived at a place in Spain having driven 1800 miles avoiding tolls on my own in four days from Scotland (meeting a friend here tomorrow). So, unless I rushed, and/or payed tolls that is eight days out of the trip spent driving, so only makes sense with the time for a long trip. I'm now climbing for a month which seems a minimum to make it worthwhile to me. Fuel here and back is probably about £500 but, with no car hire or accomodation costs, it will be a similar total to the sort of cheap flight week's trip I've done many times before. More C02 though since I drove on my own.

So, for me, driving only makes sense if I have five or six weeks or so for the whole trip. I can do this no problem because I am retired but I never did it while working and I think it would be a stretch for most working people.

As for C02 emissions, yes, it is better for me to drive if the longer trip replaces two or more flying trips instead. The trouble is that this probably means turning down working or otherwise more time limited friends who want to make shorter trips at other times - my idea when retired was to make fewer but longer trips, but I just seem to be making more trips of all lengths!

Edit: Of course the virtuous thing to do would be to go by train, but that would cost about the same as driving and then with car hire and accomodation costs on top making a long trip extremely expensive while foregoing the freedom of a van.

In reply to Marek:

Either not travel at all or go by train. But people are going to continue to travel if they can afford it, so what is really needed is to put up the price of flying, probably by properly taxing aviation fuel, or else subsidise train travel (possibly from the proceeds of taxing flying).

But going to Spain for a week by train probably makes no more sense than flying for a weekend......

In reply to Robert Durran:

By 'properly' I assume that you mean as a means of social engineering since it's not clear that simply basing taxation on CO2 emissions would make much difference? Yes, that would have an effect, but I'm rather uncomfortable with using affordability as a social engineering tool since its primary effect is on the (relatively) poor. The (middling) rich won't care if the flight is £200 or £300, they'll carry on flying around anyway. The planet of course doesn't care about social fairness, but we (probably) should.

In reply to Marek:

Couldn't you say the same about the high taxes on alcohol and cigarettes?

I like the idea of a frequent flier tax, with each flight in a year getting exponentially more taxed; people having their one week in the sun would be unaffected, but rich jetsetters (and obsessive sport climbers!) would get hit hard.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Thanks for sharing those figures, it's a useful comparison. Although many of us would travel to Scotland with a climbing partner and be in the same vehicle, so the 206kg would likely be shared between two, therefore halved in the context of this example.

But let's say none of us ever car share on these trips and expand the figures a little based on this. For one person making one trip the Co2 difference is a mere 22kg. But if 10,000 people choose the flight option? 22x10,000 = 222,000kg of additional Co2

A further delve into this and a little help from google, I too have done a carbon estimate for the Manchester to Malaga flight and am coming up with wildly different figures. Over 700kg - https://co2.myclimate.org/en/portfolios?calculation_id=6539875

Same calculator estimates about 300kg C02 for the Manchester - Fort William round trip - https://co2.myclimate.org/en/portfolios?calculation_id=6539875

Based on these figures the difference is quite striking.

In reply to MischaHY: 

 
So everybody should become freelance , free wheelin climbing instructors just working enough to pay for out next rad adventures ? Can I just ask a couple of the many questions this poses  ?

1.Who’s going to drive the train ? 

2 will I still be able to get roast pangolin sandwich’s in the buffet car ?

Edit 1 :other roast meats are acceptable. Apart from swan  . Gives me terrible wind. Which is a bit inconsiderate on a long train journey .

edit 2 : sorry I forgot . Consideration of other people’s situations is not high on your list 

In reply to Mark Eddy:

Yeah this is why I didn't use that site. You'd have to be driving a panzer to get 290g/km. It's not easy to find their sources so I don't know why they're coming up with that, so consequently I find it hard to trust any of their numbers. 

I'd encourage you to keep on digging, look in a few other places, but there are so many agendas in this sphere that it's hard to find objective answers and when the numbers smell wrong you have to look deeper.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

that could just be the sandwiches from the buffet car 

In reply to mike123:

Well yeah, if your car has a buffet car I could believe 290g/km

I was drove to Finale ligure for a long weekend to ride mtb.

Left Friday AM drive all day. Rode Saturday and Sunday. Drive home Monday.

It was an awesome trip.

In reply to Godwin:

I have taken a rack of draws/slings etc and a rope in carry on twice to kalymnos but not sure if this is safer as its such a  common thing on that route?

In reply to vizik:

Just plant a few trees and tell everyone your trip was "carbon negative" (Just like Brewdog)

In reply to Will Oliver:

It's not the route that determined what is and isn't allowed through but the airport or specific security operator. 

The worst I have experienced is security examining a gri gri because they could not identify it from the x-ray. Others will have different experiences.

In reply to Will Oliver:

It is a lottery.
If something is a risk to the safety of the aircraft, you should not be able to take it onboard. If it is not, you should, but it is not consitent.
I have approached the BMC our representative body, to approach the CAA to see if possibly an information sheet could be produced and circulated to all airports with a definitive statement of what could be allowed. Andy Say did try and do something but apparently got nowhere.

In reply to Godwin:

I’ve done it several times. I live 45mins from Mcr airport, so late flight Fri, pick up car and pre booked AirBnB. Climb all day Sat and Sun, then late flight back. Guaranteed sun and warmth, instead of the trips of my youth, sitting in the rain in Fort Bill. For Iceclimbing, alpinism or skiing Cham. is even more  convenient

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well.done on your long solo drive to Spain. I can imagine that it was quite an adventure.

When deciding on your route, why did you choose to avoid tolls?

Did this save you money when compared with additional fuel costs?

Did you factor in an hourly rate for the additional journey time?

In reply to Ennerdaleblonde:

To save money and make it less dull. I wasn't too bothered about it taking a bit longer.

Google maps tells me that I could have shortened the route by about 150 miles (I just chose a reasonable and interesting looking route from a map through France going east of Paris because I went west last time).  I think tolls would have been around £100. So maybe saved about £80. Though I could probably have driven more economically on the motorways if I had stuck to about 60mph.

No.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Interesting, thanks. Time wise I think it would have to save a day of driving to make a real difference.