UKC

I'm in the later stages of planning a new climbing wall, and I'm spending some time looking round other walls to get inspiration (ie stealing all the best ideas...) this weekend.

I have one day free to look around London.  I've already seen Yonder, Stronghold TH, The Substation and VauxWall.  I'm planning to look in on BethWall, The Hanger, and The Font in Wandsworth, possibly also Stronghold LF.

Am I missing anything obvious?  Are there any really innovative walls that I oughtn't miss?

Happy to hear suggestions in the rest of the country too!  I'm just planning my route for this weekend right now.

You've seen a good range already and the others you mention are more of the same. I don't think any of the London walls are particularly innovative. Which is not to say they are bad, just that they are like a typical high street chain shop: the names are different but they're all selling similar clothes. You could check out Blokfit in Brixton which is more of a training gym and The Westway as an example of how not to do it.

A trip to Tokyo is probably not on the cards but if it was: https://english.pump-climbing.com/akiba/

Many overseas wall will have virtual tours, I presume you've made good use of this facility?

Not sure what I’d picture in the category of ‘innovative’ climbing walls, but the gap that springs to mind in your list is Rise, over in Canning Town. To me it feels somewhere between Yonder and (a less scuzzy version of!) the old Hackney Wick wall, with a really nice community vibe and a nice mix of setting and training facilities. 

Not in London, but the link below has a short video on the only bouldering wall you'll ever need.

https://www.foundryclimbing.com/the-climbing

CB.

Hi Jamie, if you're looking to standout from 90% of London walls- open a gym with lead climbing. You can probably count on one hand the number of lead climbing facilities within the London and South/South east

Don’t forget that innovation doesn’t always mean good. Whatever you decide, make sure the punters want it, then make sure you do it better than everyone else. 

Either way, wishing you the very best of luck. 
 

The Reach, was my local wall when living in London. Now in Lyon I realise how good it was compared to the walls here. Good bouldering, lot of roped climbing, lots of auto belays. 

The old arch bouldering wall used to have a tunnel that sloped upwards, i loved it. Lost in the upgrade, now there's a long traverse wall there.

I miss clean holds!

I think depot in Manchester is worth a look at for an awesome set up, albeit only really for bouldering but it’s a really great facility for training and bouldering. Just very busy at peak times.

Thanks all - really helpful.

I rather thought this might be the case - at some point further research is just diminishing returns.

So we're modelling ourselves primarily upon two Dutch walls, Bloc13 and Energiehaven, and we've visited them both.  Tokyo is probably a less justifiable use of our budget, sadly!  But yes, I've been using quite a few of the online 3D 'tours' and would welcome any further suggestions.

Thanks - I will take a look.  

Duly noted!

Ah - so we're not based in London; that's just where I'm going this weekend.  We're in Oxford.  And our building has a max height of about 7m, so we will have a few autobelays (and, if I get my way, a top-roped crack climbing section) but no actual lead climbing.

Absolutely agree.  I really am trying to steal the best ideas from everyone.  The most useful question I have found to ask in each wall I visit is 'if you were rebuilding this facility from scratch, what would you not include?'

So one of my bug bears is dirty holds.  My wall will be clean.

Next time I head north I'll be looking in on a few walls - I'll make this one of them.

Great question. There must have been plenty of cash wasted over the years in pursuit of stuff that doesn’t end up getting used.  

Could be worth an online questionnaire too. Happy to fill it in, as I’m sure many others would.

Rather than going to London I would suggest going to Sheffield. Both The Hangar and the depot are great. The Climbing Unit in Derby is also excellent and has a similar set up to what you are proposing.

The Climbing Station in Loughborough also has a similar space (the circuit boards were outstanding!).

1- regularly reset routes using proper routesetters.

2- Clean the holds after every reset.

3 - a couple of very good woodies (people will travel miles, just for these and are used by people who invest in monthly passes).

I'd also like a we'll Air Conditioned wall for summer use but it's probably a significant investment. 

Some good quality, affordable, healthy snacks would be nice too. I have no idea why pizza ( the food which makes your hands greasier than a rockabillys fringe) is so popular at climbing walls, but it is.

The top out boulder at blochaus Manchester is brilliant 

Hi Jamie, I designed a few of the London walls you visited, plus a non insignificant chunk of all the other walls built in the last decade or so.

If you want to talk design drop me an email, I've messaged you. 

One thing I will say now though is don't fall for gimmicks, they often look cool on Instagram but in reality end up being quite expensive to build and hardly anyone uses them once the novelty has worn off. If you've got a massive centre you can maybe afford to waste the space on one but if every area counts don't bother.

Second bit of advice is don't forget how expensive matting is. It can sometimes be more than the wall if the layout isn't efficient.

Best of luck with the project. 

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Yes to all these things.  And also to the pizza

I'll certainly be doing a trip up to the Sheffield / Manchester area to look around a few of those walls as well.  London is just very convenient!

Already done a fairly comprehensive questionnaire - we had 400 responses which makes me think there is plenty of appetite out there.

Yeah, I am (painfully) aware of the cost of matting... I'll reply to your message in a bit, Lord_ash2000.

I wonder whether climbing walls are one of those things where there's a disconnect between what features people say affect their choice, what features actually affect their choice, and what features they actually use a lot once they get there.

The Castle. if you’re looking around London climbing walls then I can’t see why you wouldn’t have a look there.

It’s a long established venue that, in my opinion, is perhaps unique in that it offers a decent amount of bouldering and route climbing. Most other London walls that offer both are either bouldering facilities that have a small offering of routes (for example Mile End) or route climbing facilities that have a little bit of bouldering (Westway, The Reach). 

It’s also unique in what they do with sustainability,  growing food to sell in the cafe, being in a very unique building with some kind of status that restricts what they can and can’t do and the organic way it has grown over the years. Love it or hate it, or even have a love/hate relationship with it, it’s absolutely with a look!

Fwiw - I'd also echo the Castle. On the face of it, the opposite of novelty Gen Z walls, but in terms of a space - which, admittedly, is much easier if you have a spare Victorian pumping Station - it is fabulous. Just wander around it. Get lost. Take in the aesthetic of the place, the great cafe, the hammock in the garden, the art. The inexplicable gnomes (they may have gone). I also love the little touches like having sofas all round the wall so you can actually sit and watch people in comfort over your cake; you don't have seating hived off away. This tends to make me buy more cake and then get a second wind and stay longer. It's just such a nice space to be in that I'd happily hang out there all day, even without climbing, and I haven't found that in any other wall yet. Although it's an old wall, every time I go back they've excavated a new dungeon or turret.

I will also show brand loyalty to somewhere with interesting setting, and I have to admit I've found that less (at least in the lower grades) in Sheffield (with the very excellent exception of Crackfest). I always like the silly, clever sets you would get at Vauxwall and Harrow comps. The 'start facing outwards' or 'incorporate a sort of obstacle course' problems. Not only those, of course, but far too much setting is just... dull. And as a woman, please, good god, set routes where I can simultaneously reach to hold both starting hand holds! Good setting is useless if it turns off the half your population under 5'8" or whatever.  

Having some calmer, quieter 'dead' space where you can chill and regroup is also welcome, rather having people tripping over you from the moment you walk in, and a speaker echoing out of your skull, though I appreciate space constraints. This makes me go to the Depot over the Works though. 

Good luck - Oxford could definitely do with more climbing and I'd happily visit when down south if it's worth it. 

Whereabouts in Oxford? well excited for a new bouldering wall

For my entry fee and a month's membership when you open I will go and photograph everything in the Tokyo wall and see what's popular and what's not if you're actually interested

Are you the same as this? https://lebloc.uk/ which I had assumed was dead. And well done on finding a venue anywhere in/near Oxford, I have toyed with the idea of opening a wall in Oxford before but drew a blank on cheap large buildings which is where I had assumed that lebloc.uk came unstuck too

Have you been to flashpoint Swindon? If you can fit a the beast in then do. Otherwise what deacon said. (But avoid 'impact routesetting'. A whole crowd of regulars changed walls because they set tedious crap and wouldn't listen to feedback. Ben West's guys on the other hand do a lot of work in your area and are good). Depot Manchester is basically the model to copy. Digital woody is pretty much essential these days.

Edit: but remember none of our opinions counts. Seems invariably kids parties will be what keeps the lights on.

Sorry missed this paragraph. 

#1 most important thing is don't be like the London walls. Go look at them, sure, then make it not like those. Horrible places to be. Cramped, antisocial, dirty, pretentious gun shows full of instawankers.

Tbh you only have to be better than Brookes, which ain't that hard. Oakwood (on your way back from London?) is probably your nearest comparable. They've got most things right, and have done really well as a consequence.

I remember your comments on the thread about climbing near Oxford from last year. Glad to hear the project is progressing, you should be busy with the population of Oxford, and as others have said it won't be hard to improve on the bouldering at brooks. 

But to keep me coming back to the wall I'm not sure I'm looking for innovation just a good variety of angles from slabs to roofs, good setting, clean holds and regular resets (more important if your wall is not huge). Then a friendly, inclusive vibe and somewhere nice to sit with a few of the climbing while resting/drinking coffee.

Look forward to visiting when open, is that likely to be this year?

I don't know how innovative it is but Oakwood climbing centre near Wokingham has a childrens area and the topout boulder area has them going down a slide to get down (even the adults like it) which is imho a great feature.  

The childrens area doubles as a church on Sundays, but that might be an innovation too far for you.............

Can't be bothered to cut and paste the relevant quotes from the above thread, but note that Manc Depot did indeed have autobelays, but then removed them.  The lesson would appear to be Don't Bother.

Regarding innovation, I think you'll have to go further afield to find that.  Just thinking of two specific examples, but very important ones: the Nuremberg walls ( eg Kraft and Steinbock) had topouts and big sloping mats decades before they arrived in the UK.  I was always gobsmacked how an area so little known for bouldering could have walls that were so far in advance of the feeble efforts in the UK at the time.

So don't be looking at the UK walls for innovation, look elsewhere.

Alternatively, they’re busy with a range of customers and as far as I can tell appear to be actually making a profit? At least by the rate they’re expanding. 
The challenge for central London walls is a bit different to most of the rest of the country, in that even before Covid a lot of them had capacity issues in the evenings and space is a lot more limited. But I’m surprised more ‘urban’ type walls haven’t started opening in other cities yet, rather than the typical industrial estate options - I guess it’s just costs/parking…

Hi Longsufferingropeholder,

Ben from Impact here, just wanted to respond to your message. 
 

Sorry to hear you thought the feedback wasn’t taken on board. We have actually taken a lot of action based on the feedback we got, including some more questions and in person interviews for regulars, changing our route setting guidance to make the styles of boulders in each set more prescribed for the teams and gathering all of our chiefs together at Swindon for a day of training to really reinforce these changes. As a result we’ve received some really positive feedback, so maybe worth returning for another visit?

It’s also worth noting that we still have a very similar team of setters compared to before us taking on the route setting at Swindon. Cailean (the other half of Impact) has been the route setting manager from the start at Swindon and was involved in design and hold orders too. The rest of the team were pretty much all regulars at the wall beforehand too, so not too much has changed.

As a part of our teams we have some of the very best route setters in the country, both as employed staff and as freelance guests. Many of which regularly set up to a national level.

It’s also important to note than we’re constantly trying to balance feedback to suit everyone in the centre. The feedback we collected is wide and varied, with many peoples favourite parts of the route setting being the next persons least favourite. As Route setters we’re constantly trying to balance this feedback to make sure there’s something for everyone, whether you love modern and dynamic climbing or prefer some more old school pulling.

Hopefully you can make another visit to Flashpoint Swindon or some of the other walls we set at and see how the feedback has been implemented 

In reply to: Jamie Wakeham

Trying (perhaps failing) to be funny, facetious, whatever, my point about The Wave at The Foundry is that it is a very old bouldering wall, but is still an excellent training facility. It's not great for beginners or children and you wouldn't want a new bouldering centre to be filled with walls exactly the same as The Wave.

But, there are those of us who still want a bouldering wall which replicates outside problems, sequences, routes and style of climbing. Of course there is a place for the compy, parkoury style of bouldering and I do enjoy some of that, but not a whole centre filled with runny jumpy toe catchy dyno onto outstretched arm stuff.

As others have said, have a look at the Depot in Sheffield, fantastic, range and style of problems to suit most tastes, the Climbing Unit in Derby is also great.

And if you could replicate the traverse wall at the Sobell, that would be most appreciated.

Good luck in the new centre and creating something that works.

CB

I never stopped going, just don't go as much as I used to. I'll usually get one session out of each set but there's not much to keep me going back.

Maybe it's just me (and the people I used to climb with there) then.

Again, thanks for all the comments.  Trying to reply to each of them in one go rather than individually...

I think you may well be right.  I'm taking the survey responses seriously, but also with a pinch of salt.  A lot of people say that a Moonboard is absolutely essential (and indeed we're getting one) but I know full well that most people won't actually use it...

Right - will do.  Thanks.

This is exactly what we are aiming for.  Those Dutch walls we're trying to ape as as much social spaces as they are climbing centres.  As well as a mezzanine cafe, we'll have space below the mezz with sofas and tables.

Loud and clear.  You are not the only person saying this!

OK - you're on.  I'll do a month's free membership in return for a decent photographic report on the Tokyo wall you mention!  Drop me a line at [email protected]

We aren't linked with lebloc - we've met him a few times for a chat.  Essentially we secured a building before he could, so I understand he's thinking about other areas now.

I haven't yet - meaning to head in that direction sometime soon.  What is The Beast - is it a mega roof like Rufus at Substation?  We can't get that into our initial layout, but we have plans for expansion in a few years that will incorporate something similar.

We've done our sums and won't be hosting children's parties.  Teaching young novices - yes.  Daytime school visits - potentially, yes.  But no birthday parties.  

Brookes caters for them well and we don't need to fight for that cohort.  I will say that I think Brookes does a bloody good job - if I was given the space they have, and told to build one climbing wall to serve everyone in the community, I reckon I'd come up with pretty much exactly the layout they have.  We're trying to differentiate ourselves from the Brookes offering.  We won't have any leading, which is an obvious difference, but also we will be much more open and social space rather than solely a wall.  We want the two Oxford facilities to be complementary, not competing.

I haven't been there for years but will certainly look in next time I'm up that way.

On the point about being innovative - it's certainly not that we are trying to be wildly different.  But I think we have a decent handle on what makes a decent wall - at least I bloody hope we do or this is going to be a car crash!  But I'm looking for interesting and, well, innovative ideas to see if we want to try to incorporate them.

Living in Lyon at the moment, so one of the main bouldering walls (MROC part-dieu) is practically half restaurant/half climbing, given all the great restaurants in Lyon, it seems a waste of space to me. Climb up run 2 centres that are mainly for roped climbing, one has a nice high 22m wall with auto belay, note here in Lyon climbers often ignore the autobelays and will lead climb the route anyway. 

Another centre recently opened in south of France with lots of routes on its exterior walls all covered by an overhanging roof.

innovative in terms of bouldering walls is about good route setting because a lot of walls just aren’t set well. They may look amazing but that counts for nothing really. If you want a really brilliant wall, get Percy, Sam and the team from the Climbingworks to set it. C.f The Unit in Derby, Eden Rock in Carlisle, the Foundry also in Sheffield. Along with the Works, they’re not the smartest looking walls, but that doesn’t matter, the setting is brilliant. 

Go to Warwick, and see how to make what could have been the best wall in the UK a bag of shite!

To be honest, as long as there is a decent height to the place and a few different angles, it'll come down to route setting, which is why Warwick is so dire.

Northampton is great, probably the best I've climbed at besides Kendall, but that's a bit of a trek.

Somewhere, clean and well lit with plenty of variation and a decent height, for me.

Try talking to the Management of Rainbow Rocket Wall in Cambridge for ideas.

Oxford will, of course, never be as good as Cambridge.  But it will give you something to aim for  

The chap who runs Rainbow Rocket is a really nice guy from experience of climbing with him a few years ago.

Totally get that setting is, in fact, what it really comes down to.  We're looking at a few options on that front.

Thanks - I'm in touch with Jeremy - I still need to get up there to visit.

Oi!  Bloody tabs.

If you want to make your wall inclusive, consider the lighting options. Some walls are so bright that they can be a real challenge for people who are light sensitive. A big factor is the "temperature" of the light. The flicker rate is another one. Harsh blueish white lighting, particularly strip lights can be a real nightmare for some of us. "Warmer" lighting is more tolerable. I guess the colour you paint the panels will also factor into this in terms of reflection. Some walls are so bright that it feels like you are climbing in a shopping centre. Cosy areas where you can escape it could also be good.

That is an interesting point - thanks. Our current plan is warm but pretty bright... but you're right, being dimmable will be a useful factor.

My day in London has been rather screwed up by the District Line closure but I've finally made it to BethWall and Stronghold, having started at The Font.  Few more to go yet...

Will you get time to visit blocfit in Brixton?

I’ve never been but it looks really good,  a bit of a London version of the school room but with more variety.

CB

Not this time, I'm afraid. The tube has really messed my schedule up. 

Perhaps another time. Might provide some ideas for a more dedicated training area, if there’s space.

Fingers crossed your journey gets back on track,

CB.

I was at Betheall on Thursday night. Very in keeping with the rest of the venues they have. That’s no bad thing, the setting is great and training facilities comprehensive. 

What I think really sets Bethwall apart from lots of the other walls is the guys who work there. They’re absolutely brilliant and have a laugh whilst working hard and make you feel very welcome.  

Having great staff who have a good relationship with your regular customers is about as important as many of the other criteria mentioned in this thread.

An honest answer to this IMO includes lead lines <15m and crack routes, which I note are both in your wish list…

I'd be interested to know what you're planning in terms of heating/temperature. In Sheffield, the Works is pretty cold (good for climbing but warming up takes a while), the Depot is ok - probably about right, and the Hanger is kept far too hot for actually trying hard. Unsurprisingly the Hanger seems most popular with beginners, and the Works tends to attract the more committed climbers who actually climb outside. I guess your clientele in Oxford is going to be quite different to south-west Sheffield so perhaps plan your hvac accordingly!

For me the Works is the best wall I've been to, mostly because the problems are so much more interesting. The Hanger and Depot are much more strength oriented and less well set (imo). I don't suppose you'll have to worry too much about setting style to begin with because whatever you do is likely to be much better than Brookes - but it's worth keeping the problems fresh and have a schedule of when circuits are getting re-done.

Feel free to give me a shout if you end up doing a Sheffield tour after London!

The setting you guys do at Yonder is absolutely first rate. No idea what goes on at Swindon or whatever, but what you do at Yonder couldn't be better IMO.

To the OP's original concerns, I'd largely just say "copy Yonder and you won't go too far wrong" (even if I preferred the old circuit board to the new splash board [though pretty sure I'm in a minority here], and I think the staff themselves recognise the weird punch hole campus wood poke things ended up being a gimmick nobody really uses.)

Save yourself the hassle, staff training, anchor testing/maintenence, extra pile of risk assessment, higher tech adviser costs, etc, and ditch the autos. 7m is probably too short to bother to stick a harness in the bag for lots of people, so you may as well just use the space for more bouldering. 

I gather that Oxford doesn’t have a large modern wall, while the catchment area is fairly large, there are lots of students and also plenty of well off families. Anything half decent should be successful, as long as the rent and build cost are reasonable.

Unless you have oodles of space and a large budget, you probably need to decide if you’re going to primarily go after the family pound (kids groups and birthday parties, lots of easier angles and grades, expensive cafe), indoor climbers who don’t venture outside (lots of easy and mid range angles and grades, reasonably priced cafe) or actual climbers who want to train (mostly mid range to hard angles and grades, good training area, WTF is a cafe). I’ve exaggerated of course but I do think there’s a decision to be made about what kind of wall and clientele you want. Some walls definitely pivot more towards the parent pound.

I’d say 7m autobelays are pretty pointless, might as well just stick with bouldering. A good training area is much more useful than autobelays, particularly if it’s only 7m. Cracks and topout boulders are gimmicks whose novelty will soon wear off. Go for a variety of angles with downclimbing holds on the steeper stuff, frequent resets with the holds being washed (once every 4 weeks would be nice) and good setters. A decent cafe would help with the revenue.

You could save yourself a trip to Sheffield and drop in to Birmingham instead (watch out for the clean air zone charges). Here we have:

(1) the Depot, which I think is actually better than the Sheffield one except the woody doesn’t have LEDs, the training area is very good though (the MCR one is bigger but not necessarily better, though it does have route length bouldering along a steep roof above sloping matting, which is a useful feature).

(2) Birmingham Bouldering Centre, which is a superb small wall - if you don’t have much space, definitely check it out (excellent setting and it has a friendly atmosphere as it’s quite small, which also means it only needs one staff member at any one time - a big cost saving compared to the Depot which will have 3 or more.

(3) Redpoint, which is an excellent small lead wall with some interesting angles / surfaces, again a lot of the appeal is down to excellent setting and friendly nature (the bouldering is nothing to write home about though as they just don’t have the space for it).

(4) Creation, which is ok but not really worth looking at.

(5) Flash (Solihull rather than Brum but it’s a short detour coming up from Oxford). Another small wall, this one pivots more towards families but it does have a variety of grades and a small but hardcore training area. The original one went bust (not sure exactly why but the guys running it were pretty inexperienced), then someone else reopened it.

100% to whoever said good setting above almost anything else.

I'd argue that the whole digital nomad work space thing isn't that innovative - London is swarming with it - and some walls that try this risk actually come off all style and no (setting) substance (but generally excellent food). That's not to say it's a bad idea; the Works may well have great setting but it's so cramped and busy I just can't face it after a day at work. So... great setting, and some space?

(I want it to be clear that I in no way wish to discourage you from offering tasty vegan pasties, good coffee and homegrown eco flapjack. *I* don't come to the wall to be healthy!!)

And +1 for the old Arch tunnel of love, good traverse walls and the staff at the Vauxwall empire as previously mentioned. All fab

Me too. Nobody will use those.

BBC really is the standout for good setting. And creative use of a small space.

Consider getting a Kilterboard instead of a Moonboard. It's a lot more expensive but it does get used and it can even attract customers. At least in the Netherlands.

Whilst I was on my last train back yesterday, one of the messages I sent to my business partner read 'one other observation: the disposition of the receptions staff is SO ****** important. My entire impression of several walls is significantly coloured by how friendly (or not) the counter staff were in the first three minutes'

We won't have any leading at all in the centre - there simply isn't the height to make it worth while.  The crack system we're planning will have topropes (falling on a foot jam is not nice).  It is a bit of an extravagance, but it makes interesting use of a 1.3m gap that I can't really see what else to do with.

Step one is covering all the walls with 100mm PIR before the climbing structure goes in, and re-roofing with 150mm.  The building is absolutely freezing as it is so we're hoping that this will help enormously.  If I've got my heat loss calcs right, if we reglaze the whole rooflight as well then we've got the losses down in the region of about 1kW/m^2K.  There's a new HVAC going in (the old one is utterly knackered) driven by heat pumps, with built in air filtration.  I've got a meeting with the company that's installing this next week.  Our aim is to hold the climbing area around 19C in the coldest months, but the co-working space will need to be a few degrees warmer (it's essentially a sealed box on the mezz to that's easily achievable).

We are certainly going to feel not too dissimilar to Yonder and The Font.

I'm not sure.  The market survey had a small but significant cohort saying that even a few short autos would be a major draw - there's a certain type of user who wants to run endurance laps, and they're great for new climbers who find the height of a full 4.5m bouldering wall a bit intimidating unroped.

We're starting with three autos (but with the option to install two more) around one buttress - it's a way to cram a lot of extra routes into a small space.  Financially, if it only persuades 5 more people to sign up for membership then that autos will pay for themselves in ~2.5 years and the ongoing costs are pretty small in the grand scheme.

Again, I think that's a bit harsh on Brookes!  But yes, it's in the order of 200k people in the immediate city and surrounding satellite villages, rising to near 300k people for whom us and Brookes are the closest option before places like Reading/Swindon/MK become the default.

We are explicitly targetting options 2 and 3.  No parties.  

We have allowed for a fairly decent training area - a range of free weights, couple of cable machines, one or two cardio machines, big campus board, a few hangboards, and the Moonboard.

I'd love to, but the cost is just extraordinary.  We're getting the Moonboard and a digital board at a gentler angle, and they cost so much less combined than the Kilter.  

Yep - the system does cooling as well as heating!  And we're putting ~50kW of PV on the roof so power for summer AC won't be an issue.

Oh - missed this.  So one of the advantages of our very open layout is that you'll be able to see 95% of the centre from reception, so at most times it can run on one member of staff (the cafe on the mezz will be a franchise, so they'll not be my concern).  We'll only need two or more staff to run courses or at peak times.

Nice.

(Fat fingered the delete button, sorry)

Interesting. I like RR, but I think I mainly like it because they do the basics well: good routesetting, great staff and a nice environment to climb in. Maybe there's stuff that I'm not clocking that's more important to other folks, though.

As a beginner and someone with an old injury, I find bouldering OK but I can't "limit" on hard stuff in case I have an odd fall. So even if it's only 4.5m, an auto belay would let me do stuff I wouldn't in a bouldering wall. At I wall I used to frequent, the 'training bay' was only 8m but had some cracking routes set at between 5+ and 6c+ and it was only a vertical.

I also think a crack trainer would be useful but only because I installed a little crack trainer on my home wall and use it for a bit of variation.

Be careful with cheap dimmable, it introduces strobing and kills your lights quickly... Better to have have two circuits and switch one off if needed (i.e. 2/3 one circuit 1/3 another circuit. You get three dimmable options that way)

Thanks - I'll discuss this with our electricians.

I agree entirely, but my assumption is a fair bit of thought has gone into getting those 3 key elements right, when not all walls do, hence the suggestion.

The food range is expanding, there are a couple of tables now and they have applied for a license. Can’t go wrong really, as it won’t be at the expense of the setting!

Sounds like you’re going to have a great set up. Hope it’s successful.

Re training area, from what I’ve seen in the Brum Depot, the free weights are reasonably popular. The woodies (there are two, at different angles), campus boards and circuit boards are a lot less popular but there are definitely people who use them and probably wouldn’t go if they weren’t available (i.e. people who are into training). The woodies are freestyle rather than Moon boards but there’s no shortage of user generated problems via the Stōkt app. There are two huge circuit boards (one on each side of a wall), which are great. Well worth putting one in, if you have the space for it. The Depot ones are around 40 moves long but if you can do one about 20 moves long people can just double up.

misha, have to echo this with the Sheff Depot. The circuit boards are well used and the training area is one of the best. 

Will you make money on targetting 2 and 3?

The sustainable profitable walls always target and develop1.

And for all the niceties of targeting 2 and 3, you do need to make a profit. Without that you are dead in the water and likely to go bust pretty quickly.Its a business not a hobby.

So one of the advantages of our very open layout is that you'll be able to see 95% of the centre from reception, so at most times it can run on one member of staff.

Not if you're successful I hope. I read the business plan of one recent wall and they had the same madly optimistic staff cost. They generally have at least 6 people weekends and evenings. Anyways, good luck. In a previous life I spent a bit of time shuttling along the traverse wall at the Iffley Rd track

There’s a wall I climb at that usually has absolutely nobody there at all. You get let in by reception (it’s part of a larger facility) and then you have the place to yourself. It’s really rather nice.

Great that you see the value in good, friendly and welcoming staff.  I’m sure your wall is going to be great!

I think this applies to quite a few aspects, such as the autos as well as the training boards.  If they mean a few people buy memberships who otherwise wouldn't, then they pay for them selves fairly quickly.

I think we'll be OK.  Again, if only a few more people buy memberships on the strength of knowing they won't encounter a children's party then the shortfall is made up.  And, as I said, Brookes do these really well - there's no need for us to chase the same cohort.

Remember the cafe isn't my concern, so we're only talking reception staff and floorwalkers, and already registered users will just check in with their phones.  In the middle of the day I'm anticipating one (or perhaps two) staff.  I can be working upstairs anyway so if I am totally wrong I can drop what I'm doing and help out - and will then crack on with more recruitment if this becomes a pattern!

Clearly at first, when we have a million inductions to do, we'll need all hands on deck.  Ditto 6pm.

Mm, thinking more about this, staff get clogged up with: corralling kids groups, waivers/inductions, coaching, food/drink, lots of people arriving at the same time, etc, and it sounds like you're trimming some of this out. 

Our aim is to hold the climbing area around 19C in the coldest months.

I'm too tight to keep my office that warm, it'd be too warm for me training and I reckon your bills might persuade you similar. Just buy your staff good coats

Good to see insulation high on the list though, a lot of commercial buildings leach heat comedy style.

This is not the correct calculation to consider. It isn't whether the autobelays can pay for themselves, it's whether the autobelays will generate more than using that space for something else such as a decent circuit board or more bouldering etc. If the autobelay generates 5 memberships, but it persuades 10 people to choose not to take out a membership and to travel slightly further to somewhere with facilities that they will use more, then the autobelays have cost you 5 memberships, rather than generated 5.

Milton Keynes has a load of new short autobelays. They get used by parties/instructed groups, and they get used by a handful of beginners. They get next to no use by regular climbers, who will do their endurance training on a circuit board or the bouldering walls. Most beginners graduate away from the short autobelays very quickly towards towards the taller autobelays, leading or bouldering. If you are staying away from parties, are short autobelays going to get used enough to justify the space they take up?

Does the history of cafes in walls not suggest that you need to run them.From all the walls I have been to subbed out cafes barley  make enough money to run and then close down only to be taken over by the owner. So it can easily be your problem

And be careful what you say on public forums there might have been a potential cafe person who is put off by your comments !

Great news!

Where abouts in Oxford? I note that Reading is getting its 3rd wall this weekend - a branch of the Climbing Hanger, so it would great not to have to travel so far / when are you opening? 

Not sure if you've seen, but I have emailed you

Lessons learnt from german boulder gyms which are very financially successful: 

• Keep the place warm - people stay longer and get less injuries. 
• Kilterboards are massively more popular than any other board and are worth the investment. They are accessible for far more climbers, the holds are nicer and you can do circuits on them. Think very seriously about whether you can manage to afford one because they are a huge selling point.  
• Avoid any extreme changes in wall angle i.e. sharp corners, horizontal roofs as these limit setting creativity. Instead invest more money in volumes/macros which allow the setters to introduce harder angle changes where necessary, and keep the walls less angular. 
• Use coloured tags for marking difficulty rather than hold colour. This prevents setting getting stale because the setters can use whichever hold colour they like for a specific problem (the problem itself is a single colour of hold) which allows for vastly more diversity. 
• Install sufficient downclimb holds at suitable heights around the gym. This will hugely reduce the number of broken angles/wrists you have to deal with (especially when the mats are new) and is better for knees long term. 
• Give someone the official role of social media manager and have them post quality content about resets, beta videos etc to help improve catchment from a wider area. 
• Short autobelays are an absolute waste of money. Don't bother. Spend the money on holds and boards instead. 
• Get a pizza oven and always make one during peak time. The smell wafting through the centre is floating money. 

Best of luck! 

A bit of a left field suggestion and almost certainly not a profitable one, but I would like it if the bouldering walls near me had a top rope slab climbing section, or the option to stick a top rope on existing slab sections by climbing an easy line and using my own rope.

I think that bouldering on indoor slabs is pretty scary and quite genuinely dangerous. There are inevitably large holds and volumes underneath me that I feel like I'm going to clip on the way down when my foot slips off a smear or my hands slip etc. I would like it if I could try the routes with the safety of a slack top rope. I often want to try and get better at slab climbing but most times I try I get put off by the scary nature of it in indoor walls, maybe I'm just a bit pathetic though

Also, another vote for downclimb holds. Having said that, having them is nice, but tbh if they weren't there it probably wouldn't stop me coming, just make me grumpy.

Fixed that for you

Bring on the Barrowsboard where all problems are exclusively on comfortable tufa pinches and compulsory technical double kneebars for every move 😍👌 There are only two grades: 'Malc' and 'Lanky Feck'. Every successful Malc tick results in a downgrade to Lanky Feck, accompanied by a soundbite of Simon Lee ranting about how Hubble shouldn't be done with a kneepad. 

Oh FFS! I thought I was going well

Been to a few bouldering centres over my time...

Clean holds between resets!

Provide functioning brushes on extended poles (too many over worn brushes)

Reset frequently and try to reset so that climbers in the broad central grade range have something new, i.e. how often I wait for the problems between 6a and 6c to be reset while the beginner and expert grades, both less used by the regular core group, are reset.  Give it some consideration

Yup for downclimb holds. Not just for newbies but older climbers saving their joints!

And used to get up high and clean holds. A decent jug while giving a good scrub.

That sounds like terrible setting. 

Slab climbs with insecure footholds should never have jugs or volumes sticking out in to the potential fall zone. Indoor slabs should not be dangerous to fall from. 

Too many setters don't consider the impact of their route on other routes nearby.

Other examples include:

- blocking a volume or arete with a new hold so that the volume/arete can no longer be used as a crucial handhold/foothold on an existing route. 

- Putting a new hold next to a crucial heelhook so it becomes impossible to use the heelhook without camming against the new hold

- Adding a new volume or massive hold on a section of wall where there is a move where it's essential to keep your hips in close to the wall for balance. 

These setting issues happen all too often!

Add: stretchy reach for a hold now behind a new jug or volume.

I mean were it just me I'd run it around 16-17C, but apparently people start to complain at that point!  It's something to play with as time goes by.  And yes, plenty of insulation.  

You are absolutely right about the calculation.  Given our market data, we think that they will bring in more than they displace.  We're taking one short-ish stretch of wall and putting a more or less 1mx1m buttress with the autobelays on the three sides.  If we didn't put this there... I could squeeze in perhaps four or five more boulder problems.  We've already got two different traverse/circuit walls, a decent campus board, and two digital training boards.

Well we've got four local independents competing to win the tender, so hopefully the winner will stick the course!

Marston Street, and hopefully August.

Yes to practically all of this.  We're already looking at options for expansion and, if things are going well, we might put a Kilter in then.  We have one big prow, but otherwise the walls themselves are interesting but not OTT and we will get several big volumes to move around.  Our coloured circtuis will be ranges of grade, not individual grades, and also tagged with the exact grade - seemed the best compromise of all the ways to do it.  And yes, downclimb holds - I think the Core ones are best.  I need to launch our social media soon, and will be handing it on to a younger member of staff who speaks Insta as quickly as I can!  Pizza is mandatory.

I will give this some thought.  Might need to chat to insurers.

Absolutely.  I'm a bit colour blind and cannot stand chalked up holds that are uniformly dirty white.

I hear you on all those points.  We will be a little bit more spaced out than the typical (for the UK) - it'll cost us in terms of the absolute number of routes at any one time but will help to eliminate these issues, as will me being a bit of a pedant about checking how the setting is going!  See also: setting browns next to reds and oranges.

Reds next to pinks is the worst. Once they're chalky it doesn't matter how colourblind you aren't

I understand that you are planning to have a grade range for a colour (e.g. V3-V6 for yellow holds) and then specifying the exact grade for each climb (e.g. add a V4 tag to a yellow route).

As a routesetter I would strongly advise you to not limit any colours to a grade range (so every colour is V0-V17 with a tag added to each route). If you think that having only one grade with one route is too narrow, the it is just possible to use tags with a range (e.g. V2-V4 tag). Having coloured circuits with a range of grades greatly limits the variety (mostly a hold selection problem that could only be potentially solved in huge gyms where you can have a massive variety within each colour) and the quality of routesetting, there aren't any significant advantages for this system. This system of having any grade with any colour is also used by most high quality gyms in Europe (MischaHY recommended it too based on German gyms). I also don't know any other professional setters who prefers to set with coloured circuits (although there probably are some...). 

There was a recent discussion on this forum too, where most people agreed that having coloured circuits is a bad idea: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/walls+training/do_all_the_depots_have_the...

It can be quite frustrating if the tape gets in the way of footholds as you move up (generally where it is a fairly delicate move). A better way would be to attach it to starting footholds (which you will quickly move away from and start on the optimal part of) and then paint the bolts/ screws for the starting handhold (s) a specific colour to denote they are starting holds.

Screwed on metal discs are the standard way.

Greys next to black are the one that get me confused. A grey foot with a load of shoe rubber is basically a black, and a black hand with chalk is a basically a grey.

I'd forgotten about discs, neither of the walls I have regularly visited use them.

"Use coloured tags for marking difficulty rather than hold colour. This prevents setting getting stale because the setters can use whichever hold colour they like for a specific problem (the problem itself is a single colour of hold) which allows for vastly more diversity."

THIS

no good can come of this. The only thing this adds is a line of people wanting to waste your time having a trivial moan about it, who don't even know what they want to hear. Play that conversation in your head and try to think of a way to end it that leaves them and you both happy. Now do that a hundred times a week. Now understand why everywhere has settled on colour tags covering 3 V grades. Everyone's happy with that. Just do that.

I like what the Castle have got going on right now. Traditionally 2 grade coloured circuits plus problems in the same grade rage specifically tagged with the exact V grade that may be made using a completely different coloured and featured hold set. Best of both really.

Best of luck, hope your business is a big success, hope you can get that weekday daytime business of any kind.

• OFFWIDTHs (note the plural)
• wideboyz crack trainers (soft grip),
• some big rounded bulges
• Lead wall
• Chimney 
• Somewhere for SRT training (maybe you could have an IRATA level 1 course run to get daytime income) or let cavers practice 

I can forgive almost any imperfection just as long as the resets keep up with me. Reset a wall every week provides maybe 30 new boulder problems to go at each week. Having the buzz of customers trying to work them out makes for a great atmosphere.

Disagree. Can’t stand grade ranges! At Yonder every grade is specific and sure there may be some softies and some sandbags but overall the grades are right because the setters are good. When managent experimented with changing to grade ranges the membership mostly didn’t want it and they abandoned the change and stuck to individual grades. It for me is one of the further plus points of Yonder over other bouldering centres. Though I do like what they do at The Castle as described by Greg which is a decent compromise. 

TCA uses same colour grade ranges but also gives individual grades via the Griptonite app.

The app also allows you to say if you consider the grade too high, correct or too low and the TCA do pay attention to the results if enough people feedback.

Maybe just one section with realistic features/surfaces let people make their own problems up. 

There seems to be less variety nowadays and most walls look the same

You're not wrong. Just playing on the new hangar one and yeah, I'm a superhero.

I'd echo the castle, by a mile the best wall in London in my eyes. Good vibes and brilliant setting and lots of good bouldering and lead walls. It's not as fancy as a lot of the newer walls, and a lot of the routes are more traditional (it still has a big comp wall mind!) but it's an outrageously good center with a lovely garden and some outdoor boulders too!

No, you're completely misrepresenting what was said. It was agreed that having all the holds of a certain colour being of a similar type was bad.  There's nothing whatsoever wrong with having a circuit using the same coloured holds, so long as they aren't the same style.

Which for depot is generally.

Black = tweaky edges and short finger jugs

Red = bleau style holds

Purple= massive volumes with a tiny central hold and lots of rounded smaller holds

Yellow= endless Nike swooshes.